PWCC cracks me up

bnorth · #1 04-09-2023, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irv

Are you trolling or do you honestly feel PWCC isn't deserving of everything it receives?

He has always been very pro PWCC so doubt he is trolling. Honestly you can't blame him as PWCC sure seems to be doing great no matter what the haters say.

I am surprised in a way nothing happened with everything they were accused of before and all the supposed pending charges. Then again not really as the scammers seem to be rewarded handsomely in this hobby.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 04-09-2023, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

He has always been very pro PWCC so doubt he is trolling. Honestly you can't blame him as PWCC sure seems to be doing great no matter what the haters say.

I am surprised in a way nothing happened with everything they were accused of before and all the supposed pending charges. Then again not really as the scammers seem to be rewarded handsomely in this hobby.

Card doctoring and enabling card doctors are hugely profitable, and it will continue unabated, at the highest and often most respected levels of the hobby. I would love to know why the FBI investigation apparently went south, can only speculate, but presumably we won't know.

raulus · #3 04-09-2023, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would love to know why the FBI investigation apparently went south, can only speculate, but presumably we won't know.

Just a guess - resource constraints and more important investigations to chase.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 04-09-2023, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Just a guess - resource constraints and more important investigations to chase.

I don't think that's it, because Brian Brusokas from all indications pursued this very hard. My guess is that whatever US attorney was in charge had concerns at the end of the day about proving it beyond a reasonable doubt with admissible evidence. And the government does not like to bring cases where there is a significant doubt whether it can prevail if it goes to trial. In court it's not aws simple as the before and after pics on Blowout, however compelling those might be in the court of public opinion.

At some point it seems a fair inference that Brent decided he would not cooperate/plead guilty, and that may have thrown this off where it was going. But I'm guessing.

Lorewalker · #5 04-09-2023, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Just a guess - resource constraints and more important investigations to chase.

I assume the FBI was involved in the eventual arrest of Mayo McNeil--the 82 year old dude who was moving reholdered PSA cards for the fella in Mexico. I do not have the numbers but my sense is that economically speaking, the damage done by just the cards sold by Mayo over his entire time involved in that fraud was a fraction of the fraud that was/is committed on an annual basis by others who were being investigated at one point.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 04-09-2023, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I assume the FBI was involved in the eventual arrest of Mayo McNeil--the 82 year old dude who was moving reholdered PSA cards for the fella in Mexico. I do not have the numbers but my sense is that economically speaking, the damage done by just the cards sold by Mayo over his entire time involved in that fraud was a fraction of the fraud that was/is committed on an annual basis by others who were being investigated at one point.

Tiny drop in the bucket but they probably had an open and shut case.

Lorewalker · #7 04-09-2023, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Tiny drop in the bucket but they probably had an open and shut case.

FBI has busted several hobby related crimes that amounted to next to no money because they were easy to prosecute. Mayo did not pose a threat to the hobby. Sure the dude slabbing the cards in Mexico is still at it too.

This was simply a threat to PSA's brand...sorta. PSA did not really care if an unsuspecting collector spent 100K on a fake card. They cared if an unsuspecting collector bought a 100K fake card and then swore off buying the PSA brand.

Card doctoring is not a threat to PSA. Seems like they love it because otherwise there would be no vintage 9s or 10s or 52 Topps Mantles that were VG that are now in 7 holders. More money for the slab means more dollars sent PSA's way.

Casey2296 · #8 04-09-2023, 08:40 PM

Not to disparage any FBI agents on the sub but they pick prosecutable low hangin fruit, much like the breakdown of society the wound is still infected and will fester and grow.
If we approached crimes like our Communist brothers in China all it would take is one card doctor getting life in prison to stop the whole merry go round.

bnorth · #9 04-09-2023, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Just a guess - resource constraints and more important investigations to chase.

Since most of the "victims" are more than willing participants they do have way more important things to chase.

Stampsfan · #10 04-10-2023, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Just a guess - resource constraints and more important investigations to chase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Since most of the "victims" are more than willing participants they do have way more important things to chase.

Like an ex-President and a porn star?

bobbyw8469 · #11 04-10-2023, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Like an ex-President and a porn star?

You should probably leave politics out of it. Especially considering everything the current President is involved in. What does the bible say....let he who has no sin cast the first stone?? It is high time to put down the bag of stones.

Stampsfan · #12 04-11-2023, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

You should probably leave politics out of it. Especially considering everything the current President is involved in. What does the bible say....let he who has no sin cast the first stone?? It is high time to put down the bag of stones.

It was sarcasm, strictly joking about the FBI having "way more important things to chase".

I have no horse in your race. We have the biggest idiot "leader" in history up here to worry about.

irv · #13 04-11-2023, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

It was sarcasm, strictly joking about the FBI having "way more important things to chase".

I have no horse in your race. We have the biggest idiot "leader" in history up here to worry about.

If comments were graded, this one would receive a 10.

chalupacollects · #14 04-11-2023, 09:40 PM

I have no horse in your race. We have the biggest idiot "leader" in history up here to worry about.[/QUOTE]

Sorry second biggest and its not even close...

Republicaninmass · #15 04-10-2023, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Like an ex-President and a porn star?

Or a laptop

Republicaninmass · #16 04-10-2023, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Just a guess - resource constraints and more important investigations to chase.

Heard they had an impenetrable defense

Snowman · #17 04-10-2023, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Card doctoring and enabling card doctors are hugely profitable, and it will continue unabated, at the highest and often most respected levels of the hobby. I would love to know why the FBI investigation apparently went south, can only speculate, but presumably we won't know.

As I've stated many times, this was all very predictable from the beginning (from my point of view). I just imagined myself as a juror who knows nothing about the hobby, listening to the complaints levied against any potential defendants and falling out of my chair laughing at the behaviors that some in the hobby would like everyone, inside and outside the hobby, to be viewed as criminal. I just don't see that happening. Not now. Not ever. There is a wide spectrum of what counts as an "alteration" to begin with even among hobbyists. But as soon as we started breaking out the pitchforks for people polishing chrome cards, we lost everyone else outside the hobby (potential jurors). And all one needs to do is point to the completely laughable / remarkably inconsistent list of dos and don'ts that are/aren't allowed by PSA and it's game over from a jury's viewpoint (e.g., it's OK to soak a card to remove it from a scrapbook and to get glue off the back of it, but it's not OK to store a card in a screwdown. Or, it's ok to soak a card to remove it from a scrapbook, but if a stain goes away during the process, well, that's just not OK).

I get that some of my assertions above can be viewed as a red herring, when the primary complaint is trimming cards, but it all falls along a spectrum, with trimming at or near the far end of it (rebuilt corners and recoloring are there as well). It is not illegal to alter a baseball card whether we like it or not. I just don't think a jury is going to care even about a trimmed card or a recolored card. It is not a crime to recolor a card. Countless collectors have taken a black Sharpie to their 71 Topps collection and later resold those cards. Nobody is going to put those people behind bars. And some number of people have trimmed cards down to the correct size because they were too tall to fit in their one-touch holders. Are we going to lock them up as well? There are good reasons that these behaviors are not criminal.

Then, there's Pandora's Box. I maintain that still to this day, even the majority of us that are tuned in to the trimming scandal lack an accurate understanding of just how massive this problem truly is. In the early years of PSA, I honestly believe that the bulk of their business came from a mob of trimmers. I also think they knew it, but just didn't care about it. As long as the cards "looked good" and were "close enough" in size, they were fine with taking their money. It was a hush-hush arrangement. If you look at high-end vintage cards closely, paying attention to certs and grades, you will see this was irrefutably true. Every auction I look through, I find countless clearly trimmed cards. And those are just the ones that are easily identifiable. The majority of trimmed cards cannot be detected. Not by you. Not by me. Not by any TPG. It just is what it is. And if we want to hold PSA's feet to the fire (or PWCC's, or Probstein's, or eBay's, or any other AH) by holding them responsible for every trimmed card in a slab that ever passed through their hands, and decertifying cards, then we will destroy this entire hobby. Because the entire hobby has been built upon that foundation whether we like it or not. Marshall Fogel's entire collection would be worth pennies on the dollar, the Wagner 8 would suddenly be affordable, PSA would be out of business, and we wouldn't have any auction houses left to sell our cards through. And there'd be no one left to sell them to anyhow.

To everyone outside of this hobby, we are just a bunch of old men yelling at clouds.

Peter_Spaeth · #18 04-10-2023, 06:22 PM

"I maintain that still to this day, even the majority of us that are tuned in to the trimming scandal lack an accurate understanding of just how massive this problem truly is. In the early years of PSA, I honestly believe that the bulk of their business came from a mob of trimmers. I also think they knew it, but just didn't care about it. As long as the cards "looked good" and were "close enough" in size, they were fine with taking their money. It was a hush-hush arrangement."

How ironic if true, and it probably is; ironic because PSA's original pitch was to protect collectors from card doctoring. LOL. A hobby built on the backs of card doctors and their enablers. Lovely. All the lies and pretense and bullshit from most of the industry leaders. Again LOL.

raulus · #19 04-10-2023, 06:49 PM

Travis-

You raise some good points. I think a lot of us have been hoping for a precision strike to put the bad actors away while keeping the best pieces of what we love. Unfortunately, such an approach might not really be possible short of sending us back to the 1980s.

Although I�m sure with this crowd there are plenty who would lustily cheer for such an outcome!

G1911 · #20 04-10-2023, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Unfortunately, such an approach might not really be possible short of sending us back to the 1980s.

Although I�m sure with this crowd there are plenty who would lustily cheer for such an outcome!

Heck yeah. Make the hobby a hobby again.

Peter_Spaeth · #21 04-10-2023, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Heck yeah. Make the hobby a hobby again.

As the song goes, it's too late to turn back now.

G1911 · #22 04-10-2023, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As the song goes, it's too late to turn back now.

Unfortunately, that which I wish and that which is likely to happen frequently fail to intersect.

It is much more enjoyable as an actual hobby, rather than as yet another investment vehicle laced with fraud, market pumping, vaults so you never even see your card, and graders who don�t know squat about what they are grading. Which is a minority opinion. But I would like for it to one day become a hobby again so I may do my collecting at a lower cost.

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