How many fake autographs out there?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Hank,
I don’t have anything wrong or against TPAs, I’m fact, I have a Ton of PSA slabs in my collection (and some Beckett, JSA and SGC) I buy them all the time however I “prefer” factory certified autographs if given the choice between the two. But like you said , I don’t limit or narrow my collecting tastes as there are some cards I like signed that are not Factory certified, so I collect them all, I just “prefer” factory certified items if given the option.

Cool. Betraying my ignorance here, I know, but what does factory certified mean? Is that a new thing?

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Cool. Betraying my ignorance here, I know, but what does factory certified mean? Is that a new thing?

Hank,
Factory certified means an autograph that you pull from a pack that comes already certified by the manufacturer such as topps, bowman, donruss etc.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Hank,
Factory certified means an autograph that you pull from a pack that comes already certified by the manufacturer such as topps, bowman, donruss etc.

Are these all autographs that the card company has witnessed being signed, is that what the certification is attesting to? And if not, and especially if it includes dead guys, who did the authentication?

[homerunhitter]

that is my understanding of it. I believe they are signed when the player is still alive.

[71buc]

I’m not a big autograph collector. But I’ve always been amazed by experts who profess expertise on multiple players autographs. I have around 150 total and all of those were obtained in person with the exception of my Roberto Clementes and a couple signed game used bats and about half of my 1971 Pirates autographs. Thirty years ago the first Clemente I bought was a Dorsey and didn’t realize it for many years. When I was informed that it was a Dorsey by a Clemente expert I learned everything I could about both Dorsey and Clemente autographs. While working at the Clemente Museum I’ve been exposed to 100s of Clemente. Now I have minimal fear of buying a free range Clemente as long as its an example signed in the late 60s to early 70s. However I will still occasionally ask others for their opinions if I’m not absolutely certain. I don’t know enough to risk buying his earlier or rushed signatures. I can attest that there are many Clemente forgeries out there. I’ve even seen a couple of Dorseys in slabs as well.

A local card store reached out to me early last year and asked me to look at 5 4X6 autographed team issued Clemente publicity photos that they were consigning. I told them only one of them was good. The owner claimed he got all of them in person as a child. He was indignant and asked me how I could be so sure of myself. They all wanted to know what made me an “expert”. I told them I wasn’t claiming to be an expert. I reminded them that they called me for my free opinion and that’s all I was giving them. I then told them I was confident enough to offer 3K for the one that was good. It was a gorgeous example. They declined my offer and decided to use JSA. JSA told them exactly the same thing I did 4 Dorseys and one Roberto. In the end I purchased the real one. I also offered to buy the fakes to have reference material in my collection. They wanted $300 for them I passed. I later saw that they sold them with the disclaimer that they couldn’t verify authenticity. They didn’t volunteer that JSA had rejected them. They knew they weren’t real and should have simply removed them from circulation. Since then I’ve seen two of them listed on eBay for several thousand. Dealers like that hurt the hobby almost as bad as forgers.

[Kaneen]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Cool. Betraying my ignorance here, I know, but what does factory certified mean? Is that a new thing?

Factory certified, as homerunhitter calls it, are the Certified Autographed cards inserted in packs of new product by the manufacturing companies. (ie. Topps, Panini, and formerly Upper Deck, etc.). These are autographs that the companies claim are personally signed by the player, and personally witnessed by a company rep. They attest to that being the case on the card in the fine print.

This practice has been part of the insert "chase card" phenomenon for many years now. However, in the early days of pack-pulled certified autographed cards there were some lax standards where some companies just mailed the cards directly to the players and trusted them to personally sign them. It only took a couple of situations where some players got a little "help" signing the hundreds/thousands of cards that led to some uncertainty and bad publicity about them. To be fair, in recent times it seems that the companies do keep a much tighter reign on the "witnessed" aspect of the process. So for the most part, modern day "factory certified" autographed cards are "witnessed" and about as iron clad as you get in the autograph hobby.

There have also been examples of known counterfeit "cert cards" where both the card was counterfeited and the autograph forged on expensive cards like Mays and Jeter. So, even with these certified cards one still needs to be aware that while it is a good system, it is not 100% foolproof.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Kaneen

Factory certified, as homerunhitter calls it, are the Certified Autographed cards inserted in packs of new product by the manufacturing companies. (ie. Topps, Panini, and formerly Upper Deck, etc.). These are autographs that the companies claim are personally signed by the player, and personally witnessed by a company rep. They attest to that being the case on the card in the fine print. This practice has been part of the insert "chase card" phenomenon for many years now. However, in the early days of pack-pulled certified autographed cards there were some lax standards where some companies just mailed the cards directly to the players and trusted them to personally sign them. It only took a couple of situations where some players got a little "help" signing the hundreds/thousands of cards that led to some uncertainty and bad publicity about them. To be fair, in recent times it seems that the companies do keep a much tighter reign on the "witnessed" aspect of the process. So for the most part, modern day "factory certified" autographed cards are "witnessed" and about as iron clad as you get in the autograph hobby. There have also been examples of known counterfeit "cert cards" where both the card was counterfeited and the autograph forged on expensive cards like Mays and Jeter. So, even with these certified cards one still needs to be aware that while it is a good system, it is not 100% foolproof.

Thanks, Kevin.

[Hankphenom]

One last question: If they're pulled from packs, in what form are they certified?

[Kaneen]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

One last question: If they're pulled from packs, in what form are they certified?

The certified autographed cards have special markings (indented seals, gold foil markings, etc.) or completely different printed backs that say something like "Congratulations! You have just received a personally autographed card of (insert player name)..."

The certified autographed cards are produced for the sole purpose of being signed and inserted in packs, sometimes limited numbered editions with gold foil stamping. They are not just regular base cards with an autograph on them. One set that I collect has the regular base cards with a white border with blue trim, while the certified pack pulled autographed versions have a white border with gold trim. It is done differently by different companies, but it is always marked in a way that is obvious that it is a pack pulled factory certified insert card.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Kaneen

The certified autographed cards have special markings (indented seals, gold foil markings, etc.) or completely different printed backs that say something like "Congratulations! You have just received a personally autographed card of (insert player name)..."

The certified autographed cards are produced for the sole purpose of being signed and inserted in packs, sometimes limited numbered editions with gold foil stamping. They are not just regular base cards with an autograph on them. One set that I collect has the regular base cards with a white border with blue trim, while the certified pack pulled autographed versions have a white border with gold trim. It is done differently by different companies, but it is always marked in a way that is obvious that it is a pack pulled factory certified insert card.

Cool. Thanks!

[Deertick]

Anyone think it has gotten better since?

https://www.si.com/longform/true-cri...lia/index.html