Card doctoring video

Peter_Spaeth · #1 05-02-2023, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it�s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor�..

I don�t know what you�re arguing, but I do know very well from decades of practicing law what fraud is.

nwobhm · #2 05-03-2023, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don�t know what you�re arguing, but I do know very well from decades of practicing law what fraud is.

Then why waste time here talking�? There are a few hundred pages of evidence over on blowout of trimmed cards in holders. Some of those buyers can certainly use your legal expertise.

My �argument� is that a card trimmed to proper size isn�t fraud. It�s just a shitty thing to do.

Bigdaddy · #3 05-03-2023, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwobhm

My �argument� is that a card trimmed to proper size isn�t fraud. It�s just a shitty thing to do.

My understanding is that the FBI investigation was not just for trimmed cards, but trimmed cards that somehow were slabbed and given something other than the Scarlet 'A'. If the trimmers were working in cahoots with the TPAs to have them turn the other way on the alterations, then that is another story and something that should be investigated and prosecuted.

SAllen2556 · #4 05-03-2023, 08:35 AM

What is hilariously (and sadly) ironic is that PSA's business model and rapid growth was tied to the idea of eliminating fraud in the hobby by selling themselves as experts who would grade cards and detect alterations. (Beckett and SGC as well)

Now it seems that grading companies are the very source of legitimizing and encouraging fraud. A graded card is deemed pure. We're not supposed to question the card's authenticity, and, even if we do, we can't examine the card anymore because it's entombed in plastic.

Once a card is in that plastic case it becomes hard currency. If you can alter a card and get away with it, the reward vastly outweighs the risk - because there is no risk. So PSA has become nothing more than a money laundering outfit. You commit fraud, pay them a fee, and they wash it clean. Pretty damn clever.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 05-03-2023, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

What is hilariously (and sadly) ironic is that PSA's business model and rapid growth was tied to the idea of eliminating fraud in the hobby by selling themselves as experts who would grade cards and detect alterations. (Beckett and SGC as well)

Now it seems that grading companies are the very source of legitimizing and encouraging fraud. A graded card is deemed pure. We're not supposed to question the card's authenticity, and, even if we do, we can't examine the card anymore because it's entombed in plastic.

Once a card is in that plastic case it becomes hard currency. If you can alter a card and get away with it, the reward vastly outweighs the risk - because there is no risk. So PSA has become nothing more than a money laundering outfit. You commit fraud, pay them a fee, and they wash it clean. Pretty damn clever.

Good summation. My only question is whether David Hall envisioned this from day one, or it just evolved that way because it became obvious the business could not succeed without compromising with the card doctors, and ensuring a large supply of artificially high graded cards.

Exhibitman · #6 05-03-2023, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Then why waste time here talking…? There are a few hundred pages of evidence over on blowout of trimmed cards in holders. Some of those buyers can certainly use your legal expertise.

Money, sonny. Lawyers don't work for free. Find me someone where I am licensed (CA) who wants to ante up my retainer and pay my fees and I will happily sue any miscreant. PWCC was very well advised. By repaying the complaining parties they headed off the potential charges. Many prosecutors will defer or pass on charges when the alleged miscreant makes restitution. It is a better outcome for the victims. I've been involved with a few cases like that on the civil end of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwobhm

My “argument” is that a card trimmed to proper size isn’t fraud. It’s just a shitty thing to do.

That's true, 100%. Fraud comes into play when that person knowingly sells that trimmed card without disclosing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Bullshit…. Absolute bullshit. If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone.

Ahh, I get it. You're just taking jhe piss with us, right?

Rascal1010 · #7 05-03-2023, 08:37 AM

I'm not a doctor (of cards), or a lawyer, but my question is who is the person that broke the law? If you have a card in your personal collection that you purchased in a TPG holder and you sell it, but it is later discovered that the card was trimmed, did you commit a crime by simply selling an unknowingly altered card? If it's the unknowing owner of the card that sold it, I fear most collectors that own purchased high graded TPG cards and ever sell them could be criminally prosecuted for committing a crime they didn't even realize was happening. If it was the trimmer who originally trimmed the card, how do you prove who that was, unless they were dumb enough to video themselves trimming the card, I don't see how it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any certain person trimmed a certain card.

I don't foresee anyone ever actually getting prosecuted for these crimes, because it appears that the person who could be convicted in most cases is in reality an innocent person, whereas the true guilty party that has committed a crime, is committing a crime that is virtually impossible to prove. If you extend the guilt to all people that were in the chain of ownership of the card, then you are going to have an awful long list of people and not very many left in the hobby that couldn't be named at some point in a court case.

In my opinion the true crime that was committed was done by the TPG company that gave the card a numerical grade. These companies were providing a service for a fee to detect these altered cards and have truly failed the entire hobby with the service they have provided. I look at one card in particular that I am personally experienced with, the 1968 O-Pee-Chee Billy Williams card. These were all factory mis-cut cards from the factory, not a couple sheets of them, but every single one of them due to their positioning on the sheet and the sheet cutting technology that was used at the time. PSA has however given a numerical graded to a handful of these cards over the years. I have personally seen and looked at a few of these PSA graded cards, and every last one of them is factory mis-cut short, along with every one of the hundreds of raw one's that I have looked at over the last decade. This is a case of PSA failing to do the job they were paid to do.

I'm not sure that the trimming of cards is more rampant in the hobby today than it ever was, the difference today from 1980 is today we have trusted? companies making huge profits off of collectors for doing a sub-par job of detecting these altered cards.

Johnny630 · #8 05-03-2023, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rascal1010

I'm not a doctor (of cards), or a lawyer, but my question is who is the person that broke the law? If you have a card in your personal collection that you purchased in a TPG holder and you sell it, but it is later discovered that the card was trimmed, did you commit a crime by simply selling an unknowingly altered card? If it's the unknowing owner of the card that sold it, I fear most collectors that own purchased high graded TPG cards and ever sell them could be criminally prosecuted for committing a crime they didn't even realize was happening. If it was the trimmer who originally trimmed the card, how do you prove who that was, unless they were dumb enough to video themselves trimming the card, I don't see how it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any certain person trimmed a certain card.

I don't foresee anyone ever actually getting prosecuted for these crimes, because it appears that the person who could be convicted in most cases is in reality an innocent person, whereas the true guilty party that has committed a crime, is committing a crime that is virtually impossible to prove. If you extend the guilt to all people that were in the chain of ownership of the card, then you are going to have an awful long list of people and not very many left in the hobby that couldn't be named at some point in a court case.

In my opinion the true crime that was committed was done by the TPG company that gave the card a numerical grade. These companies were providing a service for a fee to detect these altered cards and have truly failed the entire hobby with the service they have provided. I look at one card in particular that I am personally experienced with, the 1968 O-Pee-Chee Billy Williams card. These were all factory mis-cut cards from the factory, not a couple sheets of them, but every single one of them due to their positioning on the sheet and the sheet cutting technology that was used at the time. PSA has however given a numerical graded to a handful of these cards over the years. I have personally seen and looked at a few of these PSA graded cards, and every last one of them is factory mis-cut short, along with every one of the hundreds of raw one's that I have looked at over the last decade. This is a case of PSA failing to do the job they were paid to do.

I'm not sure that the trimming of cards is more rampant in the hobby today than it ever was, the difference today from 1980 is today we have trusted? companies making huge profits off of collectors for doing a sub-par job of detecting these altered cards.

Agree with your first two points Spot on Point Sir Up. I do not in any way shape or form see that any crime was committed by the grading companies, zero, they’re just giving an Opinion.

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