Help with Authenticity - Ruth, Mantle, Mays

irv · #1 05-20-2023, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redauto5

Thanks. I think they are flat surface cubes, and yes I've heard PSA especially gives a lot of these cards out of old screw downs A's because the card has been compressed and is now thinner than originally. Does SGC do this as well?

I'm assuming both Mantles, the Mays and the Ruth are fakes at this point. I'm curious on the Mathews, and will remove both the Mays and the Mathews from the screw downs and compare them. The surface feel, smell, card width. He has a few other low grade '52 commons I can compare the Mathews too as well.

It may be safest to assume all the authentic cards in screw downs will only grade A, but man that's a blow to any offer I give him and I want to be fair. Regardless, I'm having a blast trying to figure all this out!

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I don't know for sure, but I would assume?

Hopefully Mays and Mathews are real. Both look really nicely centered and that is hard to find, especially with the Mathews. Pricey card, as is Mays.

JustinD · #2 05-20-2023, 02:55 PM

Sadly, looks like the person with that collection had more money than skill. Would have been best to stick to graded.

Most of the valuable ungraded looks very fake and bad fakes on some. The 52 Mays is godawful. The Ruth is absolutely fake, as is the 56 Mantle and 52 Mathews. The 53 Mantle is a maybe at best without a better pic as is Payton.

The graded look somewhat good by percentage, but there are a few that need a bit of closer examination. Unfortunately, I have very strong doubts on your Goudey Lou Gehrig not being a reseal, so much looks wrong with it. The graded sport kings look good as does the Gretzky.

It’s a very dangerous mix.

gonefishin · #3 05-20-2023, 03:31 PM

Not saying this is the case with your seller, but many times a scam artist will include a couple of authentic, lower valued, cards in the mix to throw you off on the authentication process. Look for all the obvious clues, coloring, format, etc.

If all seems ok, take a bright light and shine it through the back of the card for transparency - no light should come through in the 50s and earlier cards.

Then take a loop, or magnifying device that can magnify up to 100x. Use the loop, or device, and check the print dots on the card. Counterfeit operations, in most cases, cannot duplicate the printing methods of the 40s - 50s. Go on-line and read about modern print dots as compared to print dots in the 50s and earlier.

If it passes all these steps, and they probably won't, you can be about 50-65% sure they are real.

Hope this helps.

P.S. I always walk away from a deal if I find any counterfeits - one bad apple does spoil the bunch for me - unless it is someone that I've known a long time.

redauto5 · #4 05-20-2023, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonefishin

Not saying this is the case with your seller, but many times a scam artist will include a couple of authentic, lower valued, cards in the mix to throw you off on the authentication process. Look for all the obvious clues, coloring, format, etc.

If all seems ok, take a bright light and shine it through the back of the card for transparency - no light should come through in the 50s and earlier cards.

Then take a loop, or magnifying device that can magnify up to 100x. Use the loop, or device, and check the print dots on the card. Counterfeit operations, in most cases, cannot duplicate the printing methods of the 40s - 50s. Go on-line and read about modern print dots as compared to print dots in the 50s and earlier.

If it passes all these steps, and they probably won't, you can be about 50-65% sure they are real.

Hope this helps.

P.S. I always walk away from a deal if I find any counterfeits - one bad apple does spoil the bunch for me - unless it is someone that I've known a long time.

I'm definitely souring on the deal, but truly believe the seller is not a scammer. His avenue of buying was a mistake. PMed you some details, don't want to divulge any details on a public forum for the sellers privacy. I'm going to go in with as much knowledge as possible and just be honest with him.

I'll definitely get a loupe and a light and will start practicing, thanks for the direction.

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Eric72 · #5 05-20-2023, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonefishin

...I always walk away from a deal if I find any counterfeits - one bad apple does spoil the bunch for me - unless it is someone that I've known a long time.

This.

If there are counterfeits mixed in, the seller either (a) doesn't know what they're doing or (b) knows exactly what they're doing.

Either scenario is generally bad for a buyer.

redauto5 · #6 05-20-2023, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric72

This.

If there are counterfeits mixed in, the seller either (a) doesn't know what they're doing or (b) knows exactly what they're doing.

Either scenario is generally bad for a buyer.

This is a common sense, conservative strategy to make sure one doesn't get burned absolutely. If the seller won't allow me to buy just the cards I'm comfortable with I will walk away. He's giving me every opportunity to figure out what I'm comfortable with which gives me confidence I can figure it out with enough determination. Cheers.

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Eric72 · #7 05-21-2023, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redauto5

This is a common sense, conservative strategy to make sure one doesn't get burned absolutely. If the seller won't allow me to buy just the cards I'm comfortable with I will walk away. He's giving me every opportunity to figure out what I'm comfortable with which gives me confidence I can figure it out with enough determination. Cheers.

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The strategy to which I made reference is different than what you mention here. You're talking about comfort level. I'm talking about counterfeits.

A fake card is fake, regardless of one's comfort level. If someone is trying to sell a fake, and I've identified the card as fake, I won't deal with them.

Period.

redauto5 · #8 05-21-2023, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric72

The strategy to which I made reference is different than what you mention here. You're talking about comfort level. I'm talking about counterfeits.

A fake card is fake, regardless of one's comfort level. If someone is trying to sell a fake, and I've identified the card as fake, I won't deal with them.

Period.

What if I'm convinced he has no idea if what he has is fake or not? That he has probably never even considered the possibility? I won't go into details for his privacy but this isn't your average scummy fake card seller cruising into the card shop smelling like cigarettes and all sped up and whatnot.

I get what you're saying, as others here have mentioned. You've learned from experience to draw that hard line when counterfeits appear. Perhaps I'm being naive in thinking I can navigate this whole thing and all you guys are just shaking your heads with the knowledge I'm going to come back with a sob story at some point. Your collective experiences are pointing to me running quickly away from this as far and fast as I can. I get it.

But I'll never learn if I don't take risks, and me passing on the cards in question if it comes down to it and acquiring the rest of the collection at good value seems like a good, measured risk to me.

Will I find more fakes in the piece of the collection I buy? Likely. But if I account for this likelihood in the deal itself I shouldn't get hurt too bad in the grand scheme of things. At least this is what I'm telling my naive, inexperienced self!

Regardless, I appreciate everyone's efforts in attempting to guide me. I am listening and internalizing.

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redauto5 · #9 05-20-2023, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

Sadly, looks like the person with that collection had more money than skill. Would have been best to stick to graded.

Most of the valuable ungraded looks very fake and bad fakes on some. The 52 Mays is godawful. The Ruth is absolutely fake, as is the 56 Mantle and 52 Mathews. The 53 Mantle is a maybe at best without a better pic as is Payton.

The graded look somewhat good by percentage, but there are a few that need a bit of closer examination. Unfortunately, I have very strong doubts on your Goudey Lou Gehrig not being a reseal, so much looks wrong with it. The graded sport kings look good as does the Gretzky.

It�s a very dangerous mix.

Thanks for the detailed examination. I'm bummed on the Mathews, guess I need to add that to the fake list. I will get detailed photos of all the presumed fakes just to put it to bed, and with all the other big ungraded cards looking like fakes I'm assuming the '53 Mantle is as well. Surprised on the Payton but with the trend on this collection I guess I shouldn't be.

The Gehrig breaks my heart that it's even a question. What in particular about it gives you such misgivings? I'll definitely take better pictures of it and will research the frosting/resealing possibility. The SGC slab was created in 2008 and the cert checks out, but obviously it would with a reseal.

I'm glad about the Gretzky. He's got the set, bought it as such. That may end up being by far the most valuable real card.

I feel like I'm wading through a waist deep swamp with gators all around!

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JustinD · #10 05-20-2023, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redauto5

The Gehrig breaks my heart that it's even a question. What in particular about it gives you such misgivings? I'll definitely take better pictures of it and will research the frosting/resealing possibility. The SGC slab was created in 2008 and the cert checks out, but obviously it would with a reseal.

Several items draw curiosity, enough to give me pause. Those older sgc cases open very easily, I have opened one myself just with an accidental drop that separated perfectly. The left side does seem frosty from the photo. The card itself has what looks to be a very unnatural wear pattern, especially on the lower right. Goudeys are not a ultra crisp print, but it seems a little off. That could be the case, just can�t tell from the poor photo and glare. We need a good front and back scan as the back red bleed and text definition will tell plenty.

bnorth · #11 05-20-2023, 05:37 PM

The 52 Topps Mays and Mathews look bad to me.

redauto5 · #12 05-20-2023, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

Several items draw curiosity, enough to give me pause. Those older sgc cases open very easily, I have opened one myself just with an accidental drop that separated perfectly. The left side does seem frosty from the photo. The card itself has what looks to be a very unnatural wear pattern, especially on the lower right. Goudeys are not a ultra crisp print, but it seems a little off. That could be the case, just can�t tell from the poor photo and glare. We need a good front and back scan as the back red bleed and text definition will tell plenty.

I zoomed in off my initial photo, do these help? I do see what could be described as frosting on the top left of the slab. I'm also wondering what the black line could be on the bottom middle. I see what you mean about the unnatural corner wear.

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Bestdj777 · #13 05-20-2023, 08:38 PM

Not to sound mean, but you shouldn�t be buying any of these cards. It doesn�t seem like you have a ton of experience detecting fakes at this point, and the seller is either inexperienced or crooked as well. So, you have two people going in to a sale that have no idea. It may be worth just waiting a bit until you�ve got more experience.

redauto5 · #14 05-20-2023, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bestdj777

Not to sound mean, but you shouldn�t be buying any of these cards. It doesn�t seem like you have a ton of experience detecting fakes at this point, and the seller is either inexperienced or crooked as well. So, you have two people going in to a sale that have no idea. It may be worth just waiting a bit until you�ve got more experience.

You don't sound mean, and normally I would've referred this collection to a friend locally. However, I am at a point that I need to generate income for my family and if I can navigate this correctly I'm confident I can do so. I've been a residential realtor for 17 years, and I haven't sold a house in 2023. I've sold off most of my own collection to pay bills. I'm confident I can do right by the seller, whom I'm convinced is innocent and ignorant of what he has/doesn't have regarding authenticity.

I was astute enough to come here and ask for help when I realized I was in over my head, and you guys have been immensely helpful. This forum is legendary in the card world, and yall haven't disappointed.

I watch Ken Burns Baseball every year before opening day. I love baseball, it's magical to me. My favorite movie is Field of Dreams.

I freely admit I'm in over my head, and I'll probably make an offer on the collection sans any big ungraded cards. The Gehrig is still a question mark but I'll figure it out.

Sometimes life circumstances call for riding out into the unknown, into danger on the frontier. This is one of those times for me and I'm determined to thrive in it, though I may bleed some along the way. Thanks for looking out regardless. I mean that.

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JustinD · #15 05-20-2023, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redauto5

I zoomed in off my initial photo, do these help? I do see what could be described as frosting on the top left of the slab. I'm also wondering what the black line could be on the bottom middle. I see what you mean about the unnatural corner wear.

I think you need to have someone skilled look at that up close. Difficult with the photo quality for me to make a definite call personally. Any frosting at all would be bad, remember it�s just superglue and just takes a couple dabs to get it closed. Sgc cases won�t frost the entire sides when popped on those old ones because they are not sealed in the same way as psa.

Take up one of the offers from a local member to check or maybe a good auction house like heritage could look at the Dallas Show. I wouldn�t use the local card shop check personally unless they specialize in vintage. Most local card shops know less than my wife on this and just know modern and Pok�mon.

redauto5 · #16 05-21-2023, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

I think you need to have someone skilled look at that up close. Difficult with the photo quality for me to make a definite call personally. Any frosting at all would be bad, remember it�s just superglue and just takes a couple dabs to get it closed. Sgc cases won�t frost the entire sides when popped on those old ones because they are not sealed in the same way as psa.

Take up one of the offers from a local member to check or maybe a good auction house like heritage could look at the Dallas Show. I wouldn�t use the local card shop check personally unless they specialize in vintage. Most local card shops know less than my wife on this and just know modern and Pok�mon.

I didn't know how easy those old SGC slabs were to split and reseal, thanks. Unless I can get someone with the expertise necessary to look at that Gehrig I'm going to have to just stay away unfortunately.

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