1949 Leaf Theory

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by Rare Stuff

Hi Brian, Many years ago I went down the 49’ Leaf and Premiums rabbit hole!
Through my previous video of the premiums, I was contacted by a father and son. The Dad, like Ted Z., remembers and documented his purchasing and opening of packs of 1949 Leaf cards. He kept a journal of it, including receiving the premiums from the store owner, after purchasing the last packs in the box. In my latest premiums video, I share some of his diary. I’ve made arrangements to meet them at the National. Hopefully they’ll allow me to conduct an interview, but definitely will discuss and document the conversation. Here is my latest YouTube video discussing the 49’ leaf set:

https://youtu.be/RygHLVtvmqM

Those premiums are amazing, there are some in your collection I have never seen! Picking up one or two is definitely on my short list to go with my set.

I watched the video all the way through, Ruth died in August of '48, you are correct that the backs refer to the 1948 season, and on Lou Boudreau's card, there is a reference to his MVP award that he got in late November of 1948, and then there are a couple of transactions that kick the can into December which would move production and distribution into an unrealistic time frame.

I'll be interested to hear about your interview, please ask where he grew up, the distribution of the cards is something that I am trying to figure out and it would be great to put another marker in the sand!

Thanks for sharing all the great info!

[steve B]

Brain has done some great work.

I would correct one thing though.

Printed areas are typically not removed from plates with Solvent, but by drawing over them with a limestone stick.(Stoning off) The changes in these cards are as far as I can tell too consistent and clean for that.

I believe they were done at the mask level, or earlier. Either making new halftones, or redoing the masks to make the changes.
Then making entirely new plates.

This was intentional, but the why is a bit of a mystery to me.
------------------------

Plates wear out, and new ones need to be made if the print runs are big enough. It's possible they hadn't saved the original masks, or that they did very little proofing at all and needed to make changes.


We disagree on the order of the printing, I think the pinks and the related ones with normal colors were first, the others later. We both have fairly convincing explanations though, so I figure it's a coin toss until some kind of proof turns up. (Like if Ted remembers when the pink ones showed up)

There are differences, usually major on all four colors, and rarely what I call a transitional type, where for example the blue that usually goes with a particular yellow is on a card that has a different yellow. Those would give a decent way of telling which came first, but so far I've only seen maybe 2-5.

Some cards the differences are very easy to spot, on others I still haven't found any.

I've been working on a virtual master set for years, and I'm not even halfway done. And haven't even started on boxing and football.

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by steve B

Brain has done some great work.

I would correct one thing though.

Printed areas are typically not removed from plates with Solvent, but by drawing over them with a limestone stick.(Stoning off) The changes in these cards are as far as I can tell too consistent and clean for that.

I believe they were done at the mask level, or earlier. Either making new halftones, or redoing the masks to make the changes.
Then making entirely new plates.

This was intentional, but the why is a bit of a mystery to me.
------------------------

Plates wear out, and new ones need to be made if the print runs are big enough. It's possible they hadn't saved the original masks, or that they did very little proofing at all and needed to make changes.


We disagree on the order of the printing, I think the pinks and the related ones with normal colors were first, the others later. We both have fairly convincing explanations though, so I figure it's a coin toss until some kind of proof turns up. (Like if Ted remembers when the pink ones showed up)

There are differences, usually major on all four colors, and rarely what I call a transitional type, where for example the blue that usually goes with a particular yellow is on a card that has a different yellow. Those would give a decent way of telling which came first, but so far I've only seen maybe 2-5.

Some cards the differences are very easy to spot, on others I still haven't found any.

I've been working on a virtual master set for years, and I'm not even halfway done. And haven't even started on boxing and football.

Hey Steve! solvents came up in my discussion with my Great Uncle who operated a press for my Great Grandfather in the late 40's, that's why I put it in there. It feels like a mask to me, but that is in my more modern understanding of things, (as in the computer work I do today). I am going to field a guess that it was a re-do of all plates, allowing the subtractions to be made on the K, and the additions on the C-M-Y. Since you too worked on a press you will know better than I, mostly since I do my masking nowadays with keystrokes and mouse clicks! HA!!

Bottom line, they changed it, and I agree, it is all about the WHY now.

[Pat R]

I still think that you might eventually find that the 2 or 3 different variations were printed in different places.

A couple of ads that may not have been posted before.

Spokane Washington May 12 1949
Leaf Baseball Spokane_Chronicle_Thu__May_12__1949_.jpg



Dewey Oklahoma July 15 1949
Leaf Baseball Dewey Oklahoma The_Washington_Countian_Fri__Jul_15__1949_.jpg

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I still think that you might eventually find that the 2 or 3 different variations were printed in different places.

A couple of ads that may not have been posted before.

Super interesting, I have never seen those, and didn't think there was much distribution west of the Mississippi. I think, and I am not 100% sure, Leaf packs only had 5 cards per pack with gum, but I could be wrong. Maybe these are ads for Bowman packs? They had an agreement with PCL players, meaning that they could have distributed on the West Coast, but I will have to dig further into it.

Thanks for posting!

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by yanks87

Super interesting, I have never seen those, and didn't think there was much distribution west of the Mississippi. I think, and I am not 100% sure, Leaf packs only had 5 cards per pack with gum, but I could be wrong. Maybe these are ads for Bowman packs? They had an agreement with PCL players, meaning that they could have distributed on the West Coast, but I will have to dig further into it.

Thanks for posting!

5 cards per pack, same name though, but if this ad is from May, it was either left over product, or it was Bowman as the injunction against Leaf by Bowman about the packaging of the cards hit around March 22nd of '49.

[brianp-beme]

A little tough to make out on the image, but does this box have a 1949 copyright date?

Brian

[Yoda]

I have to say that Larry Jansen's mustache is less than flattering. His wife should have demanded he shave it off.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by yanks87

Super interesting, I have never seen those, and didn't think there was much distribution west of the Mississippi. I think, and I am not 100% sure, Leaf packs only had 5 cards per pack with gum, but I could be wrong. Maybe these are ads for Bowman packs? They had an agreement with PCL players, meaning that they could have distributed on the West Coast, but I will have to dig further into it.

Thanks for posting!

I would think the "All Star Bubble Gum' would exclude it from being Bowman especially considering that they had a suit against Leaf.


According to Ted (post #11) in this thread Leaf did come with 6 Baseball cards in a pack.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...highlight=Leaf

[G1911]

Bowman boxes look different and don't have the All-Star branding, which is on the back of the 1949 Leaf cards. Bowman's product was just Baseball Bubble Gum.

Not my items, pulled off the web.