Super high end Mantle cards

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

It's not that you needed to see him play . . . . it's just that Mantle's cards seems to have a widely disproportionate level of love among collectors than what is reflected in his broader impact. They are people like Ruth, Jordan, Gretzky who are iconic personalities. Not coincidentally, they are the gold standard in their respective sports. Then, on the other end of the spectrum are guys like Sherry Magee, who are hobby icons, and have zero cultural or even baseball resonance to anyone outside the hobby. (Or this board!) Then you have the rest of players between those goalposts.

Mays will pass at some point relatively soon and the accolates will pour in that he was one of the great 3 or 4 baseball players of all time. And people will argue that his cards aren't on the same level as Mantle because he wasn't smiling. Or was rude at a card show? Alrighty. . . . Go for it.

I've always figured that Mantle is huge because in the hobby because the snapshot of who has half a million or a million to spend on a piece of card board are men of a certain age who either saw him play or identified with him. If he was your idol and you are a wealthy man I get it. If you are 30 years old collecting Mantle I think morely likely than not you are investing. And nothing wrong with that either.

Look at the list you rattled off for greats of their sports: Ruth, Jordan and Gretzky. Ruth won 7 titles. Jordan won 6 titles. Gretzky won 4 Stanley Cups.

Willie Mays won a single World Series.

Mantle won 7 of them. I think that's probably why Mantle occupies his space. He is forever seen as a champion. Mays, though great in his own right, won't be seen that way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Obviously he did not do it alone, but Mantle's teams won the pennant an astonishing 12 out of his first 14 seasons, after which he went into decline and they did not win again.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Obviously he did not do it alone, but Mantle's teams won the pennant an astonishing 12 out of his first 14 seasons, after which he went into decline and they did not win again.

Yogi won 1O WS. I can't remember the last thread on the board discussing his cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yogi won 1O WS. I can't remember the last thread on the board discussing his cards.

Yogi was not an elite home run hitter or even hitter. He won with teams that first had DiMaggio, then Mantle. To people very sophisticated in baseball, he may have been even more valuable (see Casey Stengel's famous remark) but not to the world in general.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yogi won 1O WS. I can't remember the last thread on the board discussing his cards.

I mentioned Mantle's championships only in relation to his hobby status over Mays. I didn't suggest that everyone who's ever won a championship is better than someone who didn't, or better than someone who won less than they did.

I would say the same thing about Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams though. Joe D was a winner. Ted was not. If you ask me, that's why Joe D is the more popular player in the hobby. It doesn't make him "better" but I think it certainly makes him more popular and helps keep his cards at the elite level they are.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Mantle himself couldn't understand why.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As Paul Simon sang, every generation throws a hero up the pop charts. That hero, indisputably, was Mantle. Who by the way was Simon's inspiration for the great verse from Mrs. Robinson, but DiMaggio worked better musically.

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by packs

Look at the list you rattled off for greats of their sports: Ruth, Jordan and Gretzky. Ruth won 7 titles. Jordan won 6 titles. Gretzky won 4 Stanley Cups.

Willie Mays won a single World Series.

Mantle won 7 of them. I think that's probably why Mantle occupies his space. He is forever seen as a champion. Mays, though great in his own right, won't be seen that way.

Ty Cobb won 0 World Series. How many here consider him the greatest of all time?

[Peter_Spaeth]

For what it is worth, or not, Bill James ranked Cobb 5th and Mantle 6th. I don't see any argument for Cobb as 1st.

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For what it is worth, or not, Bill James ranked Cobb 5th and Mantle 6th. I don't see any argument for Cobb as 1st.

Joe Posnanski's top 11:

1)Willie Mays
2)Babe Ruth
3)Barry Bonds
4)Henry Aaron
5)Oscar Charleston
6)Ted Williams
7)Walter Johnson
8)Ty Cobb
9)Stan Musial
10)Satchel Paige
11)Mickey Mantle

I am sure that will not start any fights

[packs]

People consider Cobb perhaps the greatest hitter of all time but no one sees him in the same light as they do Mantle so I’m not sure what Cobb brings to the conversation. Most people still think the book Cobb is an accurate reflection of his life.

Who considers him more popular than Mantle?

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by packs

People consider Cobb perhaps the greatest hitter of all time but no one sees him in the same light as they do Mantle so I’m not sure what Cobb brings to the conversation. Most people still think the book Cobb is an accurate reflection of his life.

Who considers him more popular than Mantle?

As I understand it, that is the core of Steve's point: that Mantle has had an unusually large gap between his popularity with collectors and his on-field performance, and the question is how much that is subject to change as those who saw him play leave the scene. Younger collectors, for example, seem to put a lot of stock in WAR (more, in my opinion, than it merits, but that's a different discussion). And Mantle can't really hold a candle to Mays or Aaron in WAR. So will they maintain Mantle's popularity/performance gap?

[packs]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

As I understand it, that is the core of Steve's point: that Mantle has had an unusually large gap between his popularity with collectors and his on-field performance, and the question is how much that is subject to change as those who saw him play leave the scene. Younger collectors, for example, seem to put a lot of stock in WAR (more, in my opinion, than it merits, but that's a different discussion). And Mantle can't really hold a candle to Mays or Aaron in WAR. So will they maintain Mantle's popularity/performance gap?

Yes, for the reasons I outlined. Also my post was about Mays vs Mantle and not Mantle vs Cobb. I don't really see Cobb having a place in the conversation. Mantle will always be more popular than Mays because Mantle was a winner. Him being a winner will never change so people's opinions about winners would need to be watered down, which I don't see happening.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

Joe Posnanski's top 11:

1)Willie Mays
2)Babe Ruth
3)Barry Bonds
4)Henry Aaron
5)Oscar Charleston
6)Ted Williams
7)Walter Johnson
8)Ty Cobb
9)Stan Musial
10)Satchel Paige
11)Mickey Mantle

I am sure that will not start any fights

LOL. It may be the only list I've seen with Ruth not first.

[G1911]

Ruth not first, 6/11 played together in the early 50’s. Seems like somebody’s list of favorites rather than an actual greatest list.


One does not need to see somebody to appreciate them, but is obviously true that the majority of people have a leaning to the people they saw or grew up liking. Young people are collecting Acuna, Trout and Ohtani instead of names from history books because they are contemporary and they watch them.