Cards still being outed on Blowout -- PSA 9 Monte Irvin in the recent ML

[Snowman]

If people didn't pay stupid money for cards in these grades, then there wouldn't be any incentive for these guys to keep churning out altered cards. I think this is the reason nobody cares. Because a lot of the high end buyers actually are aware that this is happening on a large scale, and it simply doesn't bother them. I know Rick Probstein said it wouldn't bother him at all if he learned that numerous cards in his collection were found to have been altered. He just wants that high grade and that PSA slab stamp of approval. And Nat Turner is another high end buyer who without question now knows the extent to which these cards are altered, and it hasn't changed his buying habits one bit either.

I think Evan Mathis was right when he said that these guys just don't care how a card got into that 10 holder, they just want that 10 or that 9. He mentioned a story about needing a 10 for one of his registry sets but no 10s existed yet, so he called up some cards doctors he knew and tried to have them create one for him. That's what these guys want.

This is an entirely self-owned problem. I have zero sympathy for these guys buying these cards. And from their perspective, it's pretty much no risk because they can always just find another buyer for them. Even if the card gets outed, nobody cares. Not even the FBI.

A fool and his money will soon part.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If people didn't pay stupid money for cards in these grades, then there wouldn't be any incentive for these guys to keep churning out altered cards. I think this is the reason nobody cares. Because a lot of the high end buyers actually are aware that this is happening on a large scale, and it simply doesn't bother them. I know Rick Probstein said it wouldn't bother him at all if he learned that numerous cards in his collection were found to have been altered. He just wants that high grade and that PSA slab stamp of approval. And Nat Turner is another high end buyer who without question now knows the extent to which these cards are altered, and it hasn't changed his buying habits one bit either.

I think Evan Mathis was right when he said that these guys just don't care how a card got into that 10 holder, they just want that 10 or that 9. He mentioned a story about needing a 10 for one of his registry sets but no 10s existed yet, so he called up some cards doctors he knew and tried to have them create one for him. That's what these guys want.

This is an entirely self-owned problem. I have zero sympathy for these guys buying these cards. And from their perspective, it's pretty much no risk because they can always just find another buyer for them. Even if the card gets outed, nobody cares. Not even the FBI.

A fool and his money will soon part.

What a world. Next we know, the card doctors will be openly advertising and competing to supply custom altered cards to meet registry needs. They can provide testimonials and even show off their work using Blowout posts. They can tout their success rates getting alterations past PSA.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What a world. Next we know, the card doctors will be openly advertising and competing to supply custom altered cards to meet registry needs. They can provide testimonials and even show off their work using Blowout posts. They can tout their success rates getting alterations past PSA.

I was kind of wondering this myself. Apparently there must be a well known listing of doctors in some circles, and one needs only place an order for a custom piece. Only a matter of time before they start advertising in PSA’s magazine, and then maybe the major card graders and production companies will get into the business too by buying up all that sweet doctoring talent. Drop off and pick up offered at all major events. A single login and form to buy, doctor, grade, with fast return shipping. Guaranteed results. Vertical integration baby!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I was kind of wondering this myself. Apparently there must be a well known listing of doctors in some circles, and one needs only place an order for a custom piece. Only a matter of time before they start advertising in PSA’s magazine, and then maybe the major card graders and production companies will get into the business too by buying up all that sweet doctoring talent. Drop off and pick up offered at all major events. A single login and form to buy, doctor, grade, with fast return shipping. Guaranteed results. Vertical integration baby!!

The irony is so rich that PSA supposedly was started to put a stop to card doctoring.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The irony is so rich that PSA supposedly was started to put a stop to card doctoring.

It was so people would stop being fooled by sharpie markers on 71' Topps cards...full stop.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

It was so people would stop being fooled by sharpie markers on 71' Topps cards...full stop.

Those would probably make it through the assembly line now. There is probably one blacklight in the grading room that is broken out for special occasions.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Those would probably make it through the assembly line now. There is probably one blacklight in the grading room that is broken out for special occasions.

Black lights are not the magical alteration discovery tool that many forum members seem to think they are.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The irony is so rich that PSA supposedly was started to put a stop to card doctoring.

What’s the saying? “If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em!”

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

I was kind of wondering this myself. Apparently there must be a well known listing of doctors in some circles, and one needs only place an order for a custom piece. Only a matter of time before they start advertising in PSA’s magazine, and then maybe the major card graders and production companies will get into the business too by buying up all that sweet doctoring talent. Drop off and pick up offered at all major events. A single login and form to buy, doctor, grade, with fast return shipping. Guaranteed results. Vertical integration baby!!

Again, this is happening right now. PSA employees are even referring customers to Kurt's Card Care to fix flaws on cards before grading. Heritage Auctions has a guy who performs significant restoration/conservation work to raw cards prior to submitting to PSA/SGC. I know this first hand, for a fact. Dick Towle used to claim that he cleaned cards for every single major auction house. I believe him.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What a world. Next we know, the card doctors will be openly advertising and competing to supply custom altered cards to meet registry needs. They can provide testimonials and even show off their work using Blowout posts. They can tout their success rates getting alterations past PSA.

This is already happening. Kurt's Card Care does a live stream every Wed night on Instagram where he fixes various flaws on cards from vintage to modern to Pokemon. He's very open and honest about everything he does to improve/restore a card's condition.

I've also talked about the fact that I clean cards myself. If I had the time or the desire to be a content creator, I'd have zero qualms about sharing exactly what I do publicly. I don't consider what I do or what Kurt does to be altering cards. Neither of us trims, recolors, or rebuilds paper stock or anything like that. Everything I do is allowed by every grading company. I've never once had a card rejected because of something I did to it.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is already happening. Kurt's Card Care does a live stream every Wed night on Instagram where he fixes various flaws on cards from vintage to modern to Pokemon. He's very open and honest about everything he does to improve/restore a card's condition.

I've also talked about the fact that I clean cards myself. If I had the time or the desire to be a content creator, I'd have zero qualms about sharing exactly what I do publicly. I don't consider what I do or what Kurt does to be altering cards. Neither of us trims, recolors, or rebuilds paper stock or anything like that. Everything I do is allowed by every grading company. I've never once had a card rejected because of something I did to it.

Pulling this out probably amounts to a non-sequitur at this point, but it caught my attention because I don't think I've ever seen KCC discussed on N54 before.

I would agree with you that what he does (at least on vintage) stops short of true card doctoring. If soaking a T206 is not a sin, then neither is using moisture / humidity to lift dents out of cards or to perk up pressed-down corners from screw cases. In the right set of circumstances in a musty attic or basement, the same thing could happen naturally. I know that his "spray" has drawn criticism too, but whatever it's ingredients - it's a quick drying formula that leaves nothing on the surface. I ordered a small bottle just to play with it, and had moderate success lessening the appearance of (not totally removing) light wrinkles and creases on postwar vintage on some test cards in my own PC. As I'm not setting out to do this for a living or even make it part of my hobby, (and his recommended practices if you do it on a lot of cards can be quite time consuming) I kind of quit after that.

Kurt does also have a "polish" for shiny ultramodern cards that seems to get out light scratches and imperfections. His videos are interesting to watch to say the least - and even though the polish to me seems to be a bit more in the vein of doctoring, I don't think he's ever had anything rejected by PSA or SGC. He's done everything from modern 1/1's to '52 Mantles it seems with good results.

This is interesting to me just because of the upfront, no secrets nature of it and the way Kurt runs his YouTube channel. Given recent events and indeed the original subject of this thread - it doesn't seem like he will run out of business anytime soon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Pulling this out probably amounts to a non-sequitur at this point, but it caught my attention because I don't think I've ever seen KCC discussed on N54 before.

I would agree with you that what he does (at least on vintage) stops short of true card doctoring. If soaking a T206 is not a sin, then neither is using moisture / humidity to lift dents out of cards or to perk up pressed-down corners from screw cases. In the right set of circumstances in a musty attic or basement, the same thing could happen naturally. I know that his "spray" has drawn criticism too, but whatever it's ingredients - it's a quick drying formula that leaves nothing on the surface. I ordered a small bottle just to play with it, and had moderate success lessening the appearance of (not totally removing) light wrinkles and creases on postwar vintage on some test cards in my own PC. As I'm not setting out to do this for a living or even make it part of my hobby, (and his recommended practices if you do it on a lot of cards can be quite time consuming) I kind of quit after that.

Kurt does also have a "polish" for shiny ultramodern cards that seems to get out light scratches and imperfections. His videos are interesting to watch to say the least - and even though the polish to me seems to be a bit more in the vein of doctoring, I don't think he's ever had anything rejected by PSA or SGC. He's done everything from modern 1/1's to '52 Mantles it seems with good results.

This is interesting to me just because of the upfront, no secrets nature of it and the way Kurt runs his YouTube channel. Given recent events and indeed the original subject of this thread - it doesn't seem like he will run out of business anytime soon.

For those of us who grew up when cards were not worth much, or we didn't think so anyhow, I doubt any of us would have imagined doing any of this stuff to a card. I am not sure what that says, but it says something.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For those of us who grew up when cards were not worth much, or we didn't think so anyhow, I doubt any of us would have imagined doing any of this stuff to a card. I am not sure what that says, but it says something.

I think it's more of a personality thing. If you have OCD like me, then you'd want your cards to be as clean as possible because you enjoy looking at them, regardless of value. I've cleaned countless $1 cards for my own personal enjoyment that I have no intention of ever grading or selling. I don't want a thousand other people's random funk on my cards.

I also have dirty cards in slabs that I really really really want to clean, but to do so would come at a great cost because they'd just end up with the same grade again after cleaning and resubmitting, and the grading fees on them would be in excess of $1k each

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think it's more of a personality thing. If you have OCD like me, then you'd want your cards to be as clean as possible because you enjoy looking at them, regardless of value. I've cleaned countless $1 cards for my own personal enjoyment that I have no intention of ever grading or selling. I don't want a thousand other people's random funk on my cards.

I also have dirty cards in slabs that I really really really want to clean, but to do so would come at a great cost because they'd just end up with the same grade again after cleaning and resubmitting, and the grading fees on them would be in excess of $1k each

That may be the exception I would think; most of what is done to cards today seems in preparation for grading, regardless of whether or not it's deemed doctoring.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think it's more of a personality thing. If you have OCD like me, then you'd want your cards to be as clean as possible because you enjoy looking at them, regardless of value. I've cleaned countless $1 cards for my own personal enjoyment that I have no intention of ever grading or selling. I don't want a thousand other people's random funk on my cards.

I also have dirty cards in slabs that I really really really want to clean, but to do so would come at a great cost because they'd just end up with the same grade again after cleaning and resubmitting, and the grading fees on them would be in excess of $1k each

That's fascinating. OCD can manifest itself in many ways, it seems....

I have OCD (which runs in our family) but mine affects my collecting quite differently. If a card has any hint of doctoring or alteration, my OCD will immediately dismiss the possibility of owning it. Unless the card (or any collectible for that matter) is all-original, my eyes will always be drawn to the newly added color, trimming or bleaching.

Any aspect that is not original to the card itself will automatically deem the card useless to me. Weird... huh!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Pulling this out probably amounts to a non-sequitur at this point, but it caught my attention because I don't think I've ever seen KCC discussed on N54 before.

I would agree with you that what he does (at least on vintage) stops short of true card doctoring. If soaking a T206 is not a sin, then neither is using moisture / humidity to lift dents out of cards or to perk up pressed-down corners from screw cases. In the right set of circumstances in a musty attic or basement, the same thing could happen naturally. I know that his "spray" has drawn criticism too, but whatever it's ingredients - it's a quick drying formula that leaves nothing on the surface. I ordered a small bottle just to play with it, and had moderate success lessening the appearance of (not totally removing) light wrinkles and creases on postwar vintage on some test cards in my own PC. As I'm not setting out to do this for a living or even make it part of my hobby, (and his recommended practices if you do it on a lot of cards can be quite time consuming) I kind of quit after that.

Kurt does also have a "polish" for shiny ultramodern cards that seems to get out light scratches and imperfections. His videos are interesting to watch to say the least - and even though the polish to me seems to be a bit more in the vein of doctoring, I don't think he's ever had anything rejected by PSA or SGC. He's done everything from modern 1/1's to '52 Mantles it seems with good results.

This is interesting to me just because of the upfront, no secrets nature of it and the way Kurt runs his YouTube channel. Given recent events and indeed the original subject of this thread - it doesn't seem like he will run out of business anytime soon.

To me lifting out dents or wrinkles is altering. I have doubts that the cardstock stays undented once it becomes dry again.

If the stuff wasn't so expensive, I'd say the spray sounds a lot like watermark detector fluid. But one little 3.4 oz bottle is about $20-25.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

To me lifting out dents or wrinkles is altering. I have doubts that the cardstock stays undented once it becomes dry again.

If the stuff wasn't so expensive, I'd say the spray sounds a lot like watermark detector fluid. But one little 3.4 oz bottle is about $20-25.

I once bought a PSA 8 1950s card with an obvious crease. PSA bought it back. I assume it had been taken out and came back, there was no way to have missed it.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I once bought a PSA 8 1950s card with an obvious crease. PSA bought it back. I assume it had been taken out and came back, there was no way to have missed it.

I think this is where claim that creases can return comes from. People finding creases in high grade slabs and assuming there's no way it would have been missed if it was there during grading. This assumption places more faith in the competency of TPGs than I have though.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by steve B

To me lifting out dents or wrinkles is altering.

Perfectly valid opinion. And I am not sure the extent to which certain dents or creases stay removed. Is it still altering if you cannot detect it a month or a year later? Maybe. But if unable to be detected, the hobby obviously isn't going to consider it altered permanently.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

To me lifting out dents or wrinkles is altering. I have doubts that the cardstock stays undented once it becomes dry again.

If the stuff wasn't so expensive, I'd say the spray sounds a lot like watermark detector fluid. But one little 3.4 oz bottle is about $20-25.

I got some old beater Batman cards given to me 20+ years ago. Someone had them in the basement and they stunk. I soaked them and it got rid of the smell and most of the wrinkles disappeared and the major creases turned into minor wrinkles.

I still have them someplace. I noticed a few years ago when I ran across them the creases and wrinkles have come back but not as bad as they were to begin with. For many years they looked really nice so in my case they did come back but it took several years before they started to reappear.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

To me lifting out dents or wrinkles is altering. I have doubts that the cardstock stays undented once it becomes dry again.

If the stuff wasn't so expensive, I'd say the spray sounds a lot like watermark detector fluid. But one little 3.4 oz bottle is about $20-25.

It depends on the extent of the indent and how you "fix" it. If the paper fibers were broken or torn, then you're not going to unbreak them. But most card stocks are like sponges. If it's dry, it's rigid, if it's moist, it's malleable. If you take a warped or dented sponge and you get it wet, it returns to its original shape. You could say it has a memory of sorts. Most card stock is the same. The issues arise when people don't know what they're doing and they try to "fix" indents by just smashing the hell out of a card. All they're doing is damaging the paper fibers. This can often be detected.

But if you simply toss a card into a humidor, you're not going to damage it at all, and you can often get the card to "remember" its original form, just like a sponge.

Here's an example: I put my 61 Koufax into a humidor and these surface indents disappeared. No smashing needed. Just some moisture was all it took. If this is considered "doctoring", then so is shipping a card from Vegas to New Orleans.

[Yoda]

OCD=Occupational Card Doctor.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If people didn't pay stupid money for cards in these grades, then there wouldn't be any incentive for these guys to keep churning out altered cards. I think this is the reason nobody cares. Because a lot of the high end buyers actually are aware that this is happening on a large scale, and it simply doesn't bother them. I know Rick Probstein said it wouldn't bother him at all if he learned that numerous cards in his collection were found to have been altered. He just wants that high grade and that PSA slab stamp of approval. And Nat Turner is another high end buyer who without question now knows the extent to which these cards are altered, and it hasn't changed his buying habits one bit either.

I think Evan Mathis was right when he said that these guys just don't care how a card got into that 10 holder, they just want that 10 or that 9. He mentioned a story about needing a 10 for one of his registry sets but no 10s existed yet, so he called up some cards doctors he knew and tried to have them create one for him. That's what these guys want.

This is an entirely self-owned problem. I have zero sympathy for these guys buying these cards. And from their perspective, it's pretty much no risk because they can always just find another buyer for them. Even if the card gets outed, nobody cares. Not even the FBI.

A fool and his money will soon part.

100 percent that the big money doesn’t care. Just another example of the power of grading card companies.
These blowout posts are useful, but I agree, nobody cares.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

100 percent that the big money doesn’t care. Just another example of the power of grading card companies.
These blowout posts are useful, but I agree, nobody cares.

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

I say no one cares sometimes for effect, or because I'm so disgusted, but the truth is a lot of people still do. And that's why none of these asshats who facilitate the card doctors' sales EVER disclose alterations. If nobody truly cared, why not just disclose?

[Lorewalker]

I think more collectors cared when it appeared something might actually be done about it. And while it might not be accepted by the entire industry I think many just remain silent because how many times can you whine and complain before you annoy everyone? I think there are a lot of collectors who would support the hobby being cleaned up, if that were possible. It is undeniable that there is a segment of the hobby who truly does not care and we have seen posts by some of them here.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I think more collectors cared when it appeared something might actually be done about it. And while it might not be accepted by the entire industry I think many just remain silent because how many times can you whine and complain before you annoy everyone? I think there are a lot of collectors who would support the hobby being cleaned up, if that were possible. It is undeniable that there is a segment of the hobby who truly does not care and we have seen posts by some of them here.

Collectors might, but the ship has sailed on cleaning up the hobby. Too much money and too many people itching for that high grade.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Collectors might, but the ship has sailed on cleaning up the hobby. Too much money and too many people itching for that high grade.

And that is zactly why I qualified my statement with ..."if that were possible".

Don't fool yourself if ya think this a high grade issue. It is an issue that exists in any card that has enough value that it is worth being altered.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I say no one cares sometimes for effect, or because I'm so disgusted, but the truth is a lot of people still do. And that's why none of these asshats who facilitate the card doctors' sales EVER disclose alterations. If nobody truly cared, why not just disclose?

Part of the fun here is that it seems like a hopeless business.

Let’s say I have some high grade cards. I hope they’re legit and not doctored. I’ve dug around on the lists of doctored cards to make sure mine are not on those lists. I suppose that’s a good first step. If I did have pieces that were on the list, I’m not sure what I would do about it, particularly if I picked them up years and years ago. Probably include a disclosure about it being on the list when I go to sell?

But when I hear about some high grade cards that are doctored, what should I do? Do I make a bunch of noise and jump up and down? Post stuff around here berating the TPG responsible? Do I send a strongly worded letter to PSA? Do I stop using PSA to grade my cards? Maybe that’s what people are hoping for, so PSA will lose market share and feel our collective wrath and desire to atone for their previous sins of not catching these alterations.

Obviously that seems like an unlikely outcome.

About the only other option available to me is to dump all of my PSA graded stuff, either out of principle or because I’m paranoid that someday everything I hold will lose value when the shine comes off of the PSA brand due to their many failures. And from henceforth I only collect raw stuff that I hope hasn’t been altered?

I suppose that’s an option, but it seems to be a pretty extreme approach to take.

But maybe others have some brilliant ideas on the appropriate approach for someone who cares but also happens to have an extensive existing collection built largely around high grade pieces graded by the TPGs?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you care to the point where if you found out a specific card was altered, you no longer would want to own it? Or are you just worried about the value of the flip?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you care to the point where if you found out a specific card was altered, you no longer would want to own it? Or are you just worried about the value of the flip?

Cool. Let’s dig deep into my motives to make sure they are sufficiently pure.

First and most importantly, I would certainly enjoy it less. Every time I saw it, I would shake my head and glare at it menacingly, holding that I could somehow avoid the conundrum now facing me, and perhaps cleanse it of iniquity through the power of my disdain. And I would probably cast about, trying to figure out what I should do with it, and how to get rid of it, since it no longer brings me pleasure.

I’m not sure how I go about getting rid of it though. It seems like it’s not appropriate to sell it to someone else. PSA isn’t going to honor their guarantee. SGC has no guarantee (other than the false advertising one in the name).

Do I chuck it on the burn pile and burn it?

Obviously that’s easier to do if it’s not worth much. If it was worth 5 or 6 figures, now it’s a serious pickle.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

Val, they might say the care, but I believe the card and the grade supersedes that initial feeling.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Val, they might say the care, but I believe the card and the grade supersedes that initial feeling.

There are thousands of us in the hobby. You are surely overgeneralizing. Many do not care, and many do.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are thousands of us in the hobby. You are surely overgeneralizing. Many do not care, and many do.

Peter, sure, some care, but enough to give up on an already slabbed high end card they want? I doubt that.

This whole post is on that psa 9 Irvin. Keep us posted if the buyer send back to the auction. Or if the auction comes out with a statement.

[Johnny630]

A lot of good prospectives on this post, I appreciate what Drew and Snow have to say. They’re keeping it real, it’s the reality of the situation. Sure cards may be trimmed in holders and they may have turned a 30$ into a $30,000 card but what can you do about it other than talk, nothing. It’s the way things are, I go back to a quote once told to me by a wise veteran on the job, he told me, John, you might not like it but some things you just have to accept or it will drive you crazy.

As far as disclosing we are thinking way to highly of people, with the monies these cards are worth in holders, that's sugar pie in the sky fairy tales and daisies.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Peter, sure, some care, but enough to give up on an already slabbed high end card they want? I doubt that.

This whole post is on that psa 9 Irvin. Keep us posted if the buyer send back to the auction. Or if the auction comes out with a statement.

When Brent offered refunds for cards that had been outed, plenty of people sent theirs back because they didn't want them. I suppose some could have been motivated by fear the card would be tainted for a future sale, but I would bet a lot that many genuinely did not want them. Don't underestimate how some of us, particularly of a certain age, grew up in a hobby where trimming and recoloring were viewed as unethical, and altered cards were vile.