Heritage Auctions - Boston Garters

oldjudge · #1 10-03-2023, 08:11 AM

I agree with Jeff that given the flawed auction process the only fair solution is to redo the auction of these cards. The question now becomes who is eligible to bid on the aggregate lot? Is it only those bidders who bid on the aggregate previously (that would represent a larger universe than just Powell) or can any prior individual lot bidders also bid on the aggregate? These questions would have to be resolved before any redo could take place.

mrreality68 · #2 10-03-2023, 08:23 AM

From my reading (unless I misread) based on the email Powell said he got it looks like HA already made up their mind and giving the winnings to the individual lots and as a result not compensating or re-doing the auction on those items as still discussed.
Further I have not heard or read anywhere about a statement from HA or anything by googling it (Except this forum pops up)
Apparently they are treating it as business as usually and sticking to their terms and conditions and disclaimers and moving forward.
It is a sad situation with the way it all played out can only hope moving forward they improve their software to better handle/link the lots etc or they do not do this type of auction individual vs set.

Centauri · #3 10-03-2023, 08:38 AM

It seems pretty clear to me that this was set up from the start to be 2 separate, unrelated auctions. Both auctions were subject of the standard auction rules - if no bids after 30 mins, the auction is closed. Once both auctions were complete, the higher number would get the cards. At least one individual card bidder recognized that during the auction, so it was possible to understand the arrangement. (Someone said they texted their friend at 11:26 that the set bidder was going to lose to the individual).

The only way to ensure ownership of the cards was to bid both ways. As weird as that is, that was clearly the rules at the start.

insidethewrapper · #4 10-03-2023, 08:54 AM

If you can't outbid yourself, then I don't see how redoing the auction will change anything. the individual cards will be higher than the set. The rules were clear, the higher between individual and set wins. Also the rules are you can't outbid yourself, these are not new rules. Seems clear to me .

gunboat82 · #5 10-03-2023, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

If you can't outbid yourself, then I don't see how redoing the auction will change anything. the individual cards will be higher than the set. The rules were clear, the higher between individual and set wins. Also the rules are you can't outbid yourself, these are not new rules. Seems clear to me .

If I'm understanding correctly, your take is that the individual cards will be higher than the set because Heritage intended it from the outset, knowing full well that (1) extended bidding on individual lots would continue after the complete set closed, and (2) competition on the complete set would be limited to one deep-pocketed bidder, so it was always guaranteed to close sooner.

That approach doesn't make sense for a business where the goal is to promote competition and maximize the sale price. The rules are that "you can't outbid yourself," but surely the auction format is meant to leave room for the complete-set bidder to outbid the individual lots as the price increases. No?

insidethewrapper · #6 10-03-2023, 09:19 AM

When this format has been used by other auction houses, were you able to outbid yourself on set or individual cards ?

molenick · #7 10-03-2023, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

When this format has been used by other auction houses, were you able to outbid yourself on set or individual cards ?

I believe some auction houses let you put in a straight bid that is higher than you need to bid to become the highest bidder.

I think in Heritage you can put in a maximum bid, but that bid just takes you to the next increment needed to be the high bidder (on that lot). It is then used as needed to top subsequent bids.

molenick · #8 10-03-2023, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunboat82

The rules are that "you can't outbid yourself," but surely the auction format is meant to leave room for the complete-set bidder to outbid the individual lots as the price increases. No?

That would have made sense but Heritage did not put in place any special rules for this auction. On their site, you can put in a maximum bid but that bid is only used if your current bid is topped on that lot. The set bidding was not connected to the individual lot bidding. Not only that, the set closed before all the lots did. So even if Powell could "bid against himself", the lot was already closed.

The problem is that everyone involved played by the rules but the rules did not anticipate this situation (which, in retrospect, they should have).

molenick · #9 10-03-2023, 08:28 AM

While I agree that a redo would be fair, I don't see how this can happen.

Not everyone who won a lot is on Net54. As far as they are concerned, they got an invoice and paid for their card, and expect to get that card. They may have no idea about the controversy and don't care that the process was unfair to one of the bidders.

Heritage can withhold the cards but I have no idea what that would mean legally. If Powell believes he has a legal claim to the set because at one point he was told he won on the screen (which later said he lost), the other bidders have a stronger claim because not only were they told they won, it never switched to telling them they lost, and they were invoiced when the auction ended.

And, no, I did not win any of the lots.

Also, I think it is a little unfair to make Aaron feel bad because he won a lot in an auction.

gunboat82 · #10 10-03-2023, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molenick

While I agree that a redo would be fair, I don't see how this can happen.

Not everyone who won a lot is on Net54. As far as they are concerned, they got an invoice and paid for their card, and expect to get that card. They may have no idea about the controversy and don't care that the process was unfair to one of the bidders.

Heritage can withhold the cards but I have no idea what that would mean legally. If Powell believes he has a legal claim to the set because at one point he was told he won on the screen (which later said he lost), the other bidders have a stronger claim because not only were they told they won, it never switched to telling them they lost, and they were invoiced when the auction ended.

And, no, I did not win any of the lots.

Also, I think it is a little unfair to make Aaron feel bad because he won a lot in an auction.

From a legal standpoint, until someone actually takes possession of the cards, it would be difficult for any bidder to prove actual damages (beyond wasting their time). Paying an invoice -- whether it's the individual bidders or the complete set bidder -- changes little in this regard, because Heritage could simply refund the money and mitigate the damages.

Getting a court to order specific performance as an equitable remedy (requiring Heritage to accept payment and turn over the cards) is very difficult, even when the dispute is over something as unique as this set.

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