Heritage Auctions - Boston Garters

parkplace33 · #1 10-03-2023, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not sure I follow. So you're saying it's too soon for that to have happened?

No, I am saying too much time has passed for a redo. Heritage is moving forward with the sale of the individual cards.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 10-03-2023, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parkplace33

No, I am saying too much time has passed for a redo. Heritage is moving forward with the sale of the individual cards.

Ah got you. I suspect that's right. And all these suggestions of a redo are moot if any cards have gone out.

calvindog · #3 10-03-2023, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parkplace33

No, I am saying too much time has passed for a redo. Heritage is moving forward with the sale of the individual cards.

They can easily fix it by not sending out the cards � which they surely haven�t done as of today. The question is whether Heritage wants to do the right thing for its bidding customers and also reveal to the non-hobby consigner that they a) screwed up and b) may have cost the consigner money. My guess is they will never have that conversation. This isn�t REA.

GaryPassamonte · #4 10-03-2023, 02:00 PM

Even if there was a redo, which almost certainly isn't going to happen, the rules would have to be amended or the same unfair result could happen again.
There would need to be thirteen lots, the twelve individual cards plus the complete set lot. All thirteen lots would have to remain open until no bids are received on any of the thirteen lots for 30 minutes. That way no bidder can be shut out.

nolemmings · #5 10-03-2023, 02:00 PM

The outcome is not going to change-- the individual card winners will get their cards.

I am not taking sides, and would emphasize that this all falls on Heritage for not clarifying the rules and/or adjusting its software to allow for the type of bidding that Powell believed was in effect. Still, I believe the ship has sailed, and it does not matter if the AH has not sent out the cards.

If I were a winner of one of the 12 I would be pissed if they changed it now. Had I known I was foreclosed from bidding a half hour or whatever earlier and that my efforts to win my lot were basically a nullity, I could have used that tens of thousands of dollars (or more) to go after other cards I wanted that were still active at the time. Instead I'll take nothing and like it?

IMO the rules as they played out were not unconscionable. Bidders are for the most part at the mercy of others to get to the finish line in an auction set up like this one. "Winners" of the individual lots have to hope that others bid up the remaining cards in order to actually exceed the set chaser, and the latter has to hope that there is competition for his lot so that he can keep bumping his bid. Not an ideal format and not necessarily fair, but I can see it as a reasonable interpretation of the rules.

Just out of curiosity, suppose the Complete set lot never went to extended bidding-- that Powell put in the initial bid and that when initial bidding ended, it was greater than the aggregate 12 singles. Is it the view of this forum that he should have won then and there-- that none of the 12 individual lots would be subject to extended bidding? If so I understand your logic, but could only imagine the outcry that would have generated.

notfast · #6 10-03-2023, 03:41 PM

I wonder if the high bidder of the set wasn�t a well known collector, if everyone would be so up in arms.

I mean the set/cards were up for auction for a month or so and no one seemed to have any issues with the format�

calvindog · #7 10-03-2023, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notfast

I wonder if the high bidder of the set wasn�t a well known collector, if everyone would be so up in arms.

I mean the set/cards were up for auction for a month or so and no one seemed to have any issues with the format�

I don�t have a clue who Powell is. I�m just pissed at Heritage�s incompetence and failure to acknowledge its obvious mistake.

Centauri · #8 10-03-2023, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don�t have a clue who Powell is. I�m just pissed at Heritage�s incompetence and failure to acknowledge its obvious mistake.

But there was never a mistake. The auction proceeded exactly as described beforehand. And there was no part of the auction that went other than described beforehand.

Leon · #9 10-03-2023, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centauri

But there was never a mistake. The auction proceeded exactly as described beforehand. And there was no part of the auction that went other than described beforehand.

If you are going to argue, even when wrong, you still need your full name out here, per the rule near the top of every page. Thanks
.

raulus · #10 10-03-2023, 04:43 PM

Heritage absolutely should�ve done a much better job of managing the closing process, including linking the lots. Or if not that, then more clearly explaining precisely how the closing process would work.

At the same time, Powell is clearly a big time collector. He craps bigger than me. And bigger than almost all of us. Put together. And not just that, but he is obviously a great professional in his field. And this set obviously meant a great deal to him. It wasn�t some little lot that he was hoping to maybe pick up a good deal if nobody else bid, but didn�t really care if he lost. He wanted this, and wanted it badly. Enough to pay the better part of a cool million to get it. So the stakes are high.

Additionally, auctions are pretty final. When the hammer falls, barring shenanigans and nonsense and software outages, when it�s over, it�s over. Finished. No going back. You only get one bite at the apple. So the stakes are that much higher to make sure that you don�t get caught off guard by stupid nonsense like the closing process.

In this case, the format was obviously not normal. Given the stakes, how do you not do some digging into the rules? How do you not think through the closing mechanics and figure out how you might get screwed?

Before Powell walks into a courtroom, I�ve got to think that he prepares religiously. He knows what�s going to happen before it happens. He�s researched similar cases. Practiced his arguments. Refined his wording. Anticipated everything that the other side will do, and he�s ready to counter. Nothing is left to chance.

Given all of this, if it was me, I would have made darn sure that I knew how the closing process worked. I would�ve been obsessing about it for weeks before the close. I would�ve lost sleep having nightmares about how someone was going to outwit me and I would lose. I would�ve called up Heritage and asked them about anything that wasn�t clear. If the morons I talked to on the phone didn�t answer my questions to my satisfaction, I would�ve moved up the chain of command until someone got me the real answers. Assuming that I know how it was going to work seems like you�re living dangerously. You�re hoping that it will work the way you think it will work. I don�t understand how you don�t nail it all down so that you don�t get screwed by the closing format working against you.

Obviously hindsight is 20/20. And I�m not trying to blame Powell. I just don�t understand the lack of serious investigation into and preparation for the closing mechanics, given how badly he wanted it. Maybe he was busy at work on a case. Maybe other auctions were just as important and took up his attention. Whatever the reason, I just don�t understand this element. But maybe I�m just a paranoid obsessive who doesn�t like to lose auctions for stuff I really want due to nonsense.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 10-03-2023, 04:52 PM

IMO absent some very specific disclosure to the contrary, it's perfectly reasonable to assume the world's leading auction house running a set against the individual cards is not going to freeze out the set bidders while the individual lots are still live.

calvindog · #12 10-03-2023, 04:55 PM

If anyone actually thinks this auction went according to plan, went down appropriately, I can�t help you as you�re beyond help. I can assure you this theory doesn�t hold up under two minutes of questioning. That I�m even typing this gives me less faith in the hobby as it should be that obvious.

And Powell isn�t at fault here. Could he have done more? Yes. Should he have had to do more? No.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #13 10-04-2023, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notfast

I wonder if the high bidder of the set wasn�t a well known collector, if everyone would be so up in arms.

I mean the set/cards were up for auction for a month or so and no one seemed to have any issues with the format�

Because there was no issue for a month. The issue came in when the set improperly closed while bidding on the individual cards was still active, preventing the competition that is the point of an auction.

To those of you who keep pointing out the verbiage of the auction, this seems to be what you're not getting. Yes Powell knew there was a chance the individual lots could be the winner, but he did NOT know he wouldn't be allowed to compete with those bidders.

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