Could Brown Lenox Be Related To AB 460?

Pat R · #1 10-03-2023, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

I don't think they made a mistake and simply transitioned from doing Broadleaf to Lenox then corrected.

While it is a nuisance to swap inks, I would think it was a bigger nuisance to swap out what was likely a 200+lb stone, bring in a different one, properly align it and continue. Unless conditions were just right the partially dried ink would cause all sorts of problems.

A third suggestion?
Since we can be fairly sure the fronts were printed, then backs added.
AND
Being efficient and delivering multiple brands at about the same time was also likely.

Two presses were in use, possibly next to each other. For whatever reason both were loaded with brown ink until it was noticed that the Lenox ones should have been black and the ink changed out, possibly partly at first. (Much easier to scoop out nearly all the brown and fill with black without a complete washdown. That could probably be done with the press still running. )

There are other possibilities, but they're all extremely unlikely.

The Philatelic foundation now apparently has a spectrometer. If I owned a couple examples, I might be inclined to ask them if they'd be interested in working up some cards. (It would be able to tell between a carbon black ink and a chemical black. And tell if the brown inks were identical or not. ) There's a group doing some of that work on inks and papers that has already put down some longstanding beliefs. Like the inks for the very first US stamp being colored with rust leading to premature plate wear. The spectrograph says..... theres no iron at all there!

There are hundreds of changes that could have been made in the set that were not made. I think the few changes that were made were because of timing and convenience, I don't think they would have stopped the printing to make new plates or change a color. I think most people forget that they were a premium and not a Bowman, Leaf or Topps set.

I also think some of the changes weren't really changes at all and were the results of different plates and printing presses used at different American Lithograph facility's.

MVSNYC · #2 10-03-2023, 08:46 PM

Pat, so you're saying that Doyle is Brown and mislabeled? Is it yours?

Pat R · #3 10-04-2023, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Pat, so you're saying that Doyle is Brown and mislabeled? Is it yours?

It's not mine mike, as I stated in post #18 if the scans are accurate it's definitely brown the Doyle is on the left in that post even the ink in the finger print from one of the ALC workers looks brown.

It's hard to tell in some scans but in hand it's easy. Both of the Brown Lenox that I've owned were the darker versions and they are the hardest to tell with
scans but in hand it was easy to see that they are brown.

Sometimes PSA has a hard time deciding and maybe it depends on what that particular grader sees. This Willis was originally graded as brown and then they changed it to black. I think they had it right the first time (also depending on the accuracy of the scan). The funny part is it sold for $7800 in the brown label holder and $14,400 in the black label holder.

2.jpg

Here's the Willis on the left next to a black Lenox from the same auction

1 back.jpg

MVSNYC · #4 10-05-2023, 12:18 AM

Pat, just judging by those scans, I think the Willis is faded black. Just my 2 cents.

Here's a Black Lenox next to my Brown example.

Pat R · #5 10-05-2023, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Pat, just judging by those scans, I think the Willis is faded black. Just my 2 cents.

Here's my Black Lenox next to my Brown example.

You and I always seem to have different opinions on the black and brown Lenox Mike. There are different shades of brown and the brown Lenox that you posted is the shade that stands out the most by far over the other shades.

I agree with what Greg said about the black not fading to a brown look I've also never seen a black on any T cards fade to a point that it appears brown.

The brown Lenox are so scarce that there are only a small sample for comparison. The T59 Sub Rosa's are very similar to the T206 Lenox that's why I used them for a reference in my earlier post.

The scans and what you're viewing them on can effect how they appear. My computer monitor is more accurate than the tablet I sometimes use but even my computer monitor doesn't reflect what they actually look like in hand.

I have around 20 brown Sub Rosa's in varying shades of brown that are very similar to the brown Lenox and they all clearly stand out from the 300 black Sub Rosa's that I have.

The Top row in this scan are all brown and the bottom row are black. The factory 129 in the top left is what I would consider a faded brown look and the Factory 649 bottom row 2nd from the left has a faded black look.

img877.jpg

img878.jpg

G1911 · #6 10-05-2023, 03:33 PM

^ Fantastic example of how black fades on the T cards. Even the right chemical combination doesn't create the same brown that brown back cards have; it's more of a grayish browning.

If fading created brown, we'd see brown T218 Mecca's and dozens of other sets using black backs from the same production facilities at the same time. We don't; only a very small subset of T cards is possible to find with brown backs, precisely because they are a truly different back.

MVSNYC · #7 10-05-2023, 11:39 PM

Hi Pat, it's ok that we disagree on this, all good, plenty of mutual respect.

I just (personally) see faded black in the Sub Rosa's and the T206 Willis. It seems like a lot them have warm toning on the actual paper stock, plus some faded (black) ink, which, when combined, could give a slightly warm black color, leaning towards a brown black (espresso) color. But I'm just not seeing brown ink there.

There's only one Sub Rosa I'm seeing that may possibly be brown ink, and that's the example in post 13 with the severely rounded corners. The rest I just think are faded black.

Pat R · #8 10-06-2023, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Pat, just judging by those scans, I think the Willis is faded black. Just my 2 cents.

Here's my Black Lenox next to my Brown example.

Hey Mike, can you post a scan of the Schlei Lenox that you picked up in the spring REA auction with these two.

MVSNYC · #9 10-06-2023, 07:25 PM

I’ll post the scans later tonight. Watching a Halloween movie with the kids.

MVSNYC · #10 10-06-2023, 10:29 PM

Here's the Schlei I got recently. Very bold back.

steve B · #11 10-04-2023, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

There are hundreds of changes that could have been made in the set that were not made. I think the few changes that were made were because of timing and convenience, I don't think they would have stopped the printing to make new plates or change a color. I think most people forget that they were a premium and not a Bowman, Leaf or Topps set.

I also think some of the changes weren't really changes at all and were the results of different plates and printing presses used at different American Lithograph facility's.

I pretty much agree.
I missed that AB460 and Brown Lenox are probably mutually exclusive, so the two presses idea is almost for certain out.

The question then is why the print run was so small?

I can see ALC distributing the transfers to lay out the plates to different facilities, or just the original art, which would explain some of the differences between series and even the ones within series.

But the effort involved for a cheap promotional item to have Lenox done in multiple plants seems like it would be too much.

To me a possibility outside the normal day to day production seems like a possibility.
An error in printing the color, somewhat easily fixed.
Using up old stock seems to make very little sense. but if the transition from 460 group a to group be ended with BL460 group A and began with Lenox group B there would have probably been a bit of leftover brown as well as leftover A sheets...

However it was done, with very few examples
Figuring a sheet 8 cards tall, and a 1% survival rate, the number of sheets done was around 25.
Even adding a few cards, that only gets to an order for 6-7000 cards. (roughly, the sheet size to get there seems strange, it could be double, which still seems small. )

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