Heritage Auctions - Boston Garters

mordecaibrown · #1 10-03-2023, 06:13 PM

Why would Powell bid on every lot??? The entire point of having the cards offered as a set is so a bidder, who wanted the entire set of cards, didn’t have to do that exact thing!!!! Otherwise, the cards would’ve never been offered as a set! Furthermore, it was designed to maximize the consignor profit.

How this unfolded was not the design or intention of the auction. The manner this was conducted made the set bidding pointless because Powell could not make competing bids and did not maximize profit for the consignor.

Also, just my opinion, I think the cards sold for about the max they would have, give or take. Powell may have been willing to go much higher, I have no idea, but considering he had no other competition in the set auction and, at the time the set lot closed it was slightly ahead of the aggregate and then only a few more bids were placed to push the individual lots over the set lot, it doesn’t seem like there was a lot of runway left in this situation. And, if you assume an auction house’s number one priority is the consignor (and it’s own bottom line) then if an auction house thought there was a lot of room for increased profit on restarting an auction - it would! Risk/reward….

Lastly, I always see, stuff trumps all. Which, often is the case for many people situations - to each their own. However, I’ll say this, if you don’t like how any auction house treats people or situations, don’t consign material to them. Without selling YOUR stuff, an auction house has nothing to sell. And there are many different auction houses at different levels specializing in different material - options are plentiful.

Andr.ew Ken.edy

Snowman · #2 10-03-2023, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mordecaibrown

Why would Powell bid on every lot???

Because given the auction format, as stated in the listings, bidding on every lot was the only way one could ensure a victory. Had I been in his shoes, those cards would be getting shipped to me, instead of getting shipped to someone else. It would have cost more, but I wouldn't have lost.

jayshum · #3 10-03-2023, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Because given the auction format, as stated in the listings, bidding on every lot was the only way one could ensure a victory. Had I been in his shoes, those cards would be getting shipped to me, instead of getting shipped to someone else. It would have cost more, but I wouldn't have lost.

Having to bid on every individual lot defeats the purpose of having the full set listed as well. With only 12 cards it's doable but shouldn't be necessary. Apparently other AHs have had the same type of auction format with a T206 set and a 1952 Topps set. I don't think the expectation would have been the need to bid on every individual card if your goal was to win the whole set.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 10-03-2023, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Having to bid on every individual lot defeats the purpose of having the full set listed as well. With only 12 cards it's doable but shouldn't be necessary. Apparently other AHs have had the same type of auction format with a T206 set and a 1952 Topps set. I don't think the expectation would have been the need to bid on every individual card if your goal was to win the whole set.

It's worse than that, you'd be bidding against yourself. Every bid you make on an individual lot drives up the aggregate price, requiring a higher set price to beat it. It makes zero sense.

JeremyW · #5 10-03-2023, 08:21 PM

The consignor is probably thrilled, but might have missed out on the true bidding war.

MVSNYC · #6 10-03-2023, 09:02 PM

FWIW, this is how it's been successfully executed in the past by auction houses like Mastros, Mile High, REA, Memorylane, etc. There's clear communication at the top of each lot (note the sentence at the very top of each lot page), and the lots are all linked and work together in unison. So bidders have real-time (official) visibility as to which is wining, and then can pivot and change bidding strategy if need be. (Images courtesy of a gentleman from New Jersey).

JeremyW · #7 10-03-2023, 09:08 PM

The consignor didn't know what they had, right? If Powell had been able to place another bid, it would have been another $5K for the consignor, right?

Powell · #8 10-03-2023, 09:10 PM

I�m moving on. It was a bad scene. I�m not suing anybody. I hope Aaron enjoys his card. It wasn�t his fault. I never thought I should get special treatment because I spend a lot of money. I should have had a fair chance to compete. The set lot was doomed and there is the unfairness. Anyway, I hope this experience reduces the risk it ever happens again. I appreciate the support from many of you. There are passionate collectors and many great people on this board whom I�ve learned a lot from. Thank you!

Powell

mrreality68 · #9 10-04-2023, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

FWIW, this is how it's been successfully executed in the past by auction houses like Mastros, Mile High, REA, Memorylane, etc. There's clear communication at the top of each lot (note the sentence at the very top of each lot page), and the lots are all linked and work together in unison. So bidders have real-time (official) visibility as to which is wining, and then can pivot and change bidding strategy if need be. (Images courtesy of a gentleman from New Jersey).

I thought I recall those and the technology/software is there so why did HA which is a big auction house with deep pockets not have this in place.

Hopefully they put this in place prior to the next time they sell set vs Individual auction

Snowman · #10 10-04-2023, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's worse than that, you'd be bidding against yourself. Every bid you make on an individual lot drives up the aggregate price, requiring a higher set price to beat it. It makes zero sense.

While it may seem like you'd be bidding against yourself by bidding on both sides, the math doesn't actually work out that way. The game theory optimal strategy here would be to focus on the individual lots first, and to ensure participation in the set lot as a backup plan, since the individual lots should be the favorite to win out. You're not effectively bidding against yourself because you only bid on one side of the auction unless two or more bidders overtake you on the other side, in which case *they* are the ones who bid you up, not yourself, as they have rendered your losing bids on the other side irrelevant. You never bid up both sides at the same time. You only switch sides if forced to. You will still have to overtake all bidders on both sides regardless if you intend to win. A single competitive bidder on one side cannot overtake you if you control the other side unless the two sides are in a dead heat already, in which case you'd still have to overtake him regardless of which side he is on, and you'd be bidding against him, not yourself. And if a single competitive bidder bids against you on both sides, then it doesn't matter which side he chooses as the decision is arbitrary and you have to overtake him either way.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 10-04-2023, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

While it may seem like you'd be bidding against yourself by bidding on both sides, the math doesn't actually work out that way. The game theory optimal strategy here would be to focus on the individual lots first, and to ensure participation in the set lot as a backup plan, since the individual lots should be the favorite to win out. You're not effectively bidding against yourself because you only bid on one side of the auction unless two or more bidders overtake you on the other side, in which case *they* are the ones who bid you up, not yourself, as they have rendered your losing bids on the other side irrelevant. You never bid up both sides at the same time. You only switch sides if forced to. You will still have to overtake all bidders on both sides regardless if you intend to win. A single competitive bidder on one side cannot overtake you if you control the other side unless the two sides are in a dead heat already, in which case you'd still have to overtake him regardless of which side he is on, and you'd be bidding against him, not yourself. And if a single competitive bidder bids against you on both sides, then it doesn't matter which side he chooses as the decision is arbitrary and you have to overtake him either way.

Suppose lete in the bidding there's just one or two lots where it's obvious another bidder really wants them and would go to the moon to get them. You really want the set so abandon the plan to win all individual lots and chase the set. Suppose too nobody else would have bid higher on the other individual lots on which you are now high. At that point aren't all your other bids built into the set price you now have to beat? Wouldn't you have done better just to chase the set from the get go?

atx840 · #12 10-04-2023, 11:35 AM

I am by far not a data scientist, but I would think it would be in the best interest of the bidder on the whole set to have the individual lots stay as low as possible.

I think both sides should be allowed to increase their own bid during extended bidding.

The aggregate price goes higher than the high set bid. This notifies everyone who is bidding, including the set bidder.
The set bidder increases their bid and they are now the high bidder.
Then it is up to the collective group of individual bidders to bid up the cards, or if they are high bidder to pay a bit more to win their card or loose it.
The bidders on the individual lots increase their bids, maybe some don't and either they top the set bid or they all loose out.

This gives the advantage to the bidder on the full set as their bid increase can guarantee high bid, however that increase is a much larger amount than what each individual bidder would have to come up with.

Snowman · #13 10-04-2023, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose lete in the bidding there's just one or two lots where it's obvious another bidder really wants them and would go to the moon to get them. You really want the set so abandon the plan to win all individual lots and chase the set. Suppose too nobody else would have bid higher on the other individual lots on which you are now high. At that point aren't all your other bids built into the set price you now have to beat? Wouldn't you have done better just to chase the set from the get go?

This would be another example of why you need to control both sides of the auction. You can't know ahead of time which side might have that one guy that is willing to go to the moon, but if you can continue to bid on the other side, you can shut him out as long as you have enough competition on the other side to overtake him. But if there's no competition on that other side, then you won't have that option available to you, and you'd have to take him on head to head. Basically, you have to be willing to take on all bidders on both sides in order to guarantee a win. You can switch which sides you bet on, but you only switch sides due to action by other bidders forcing you to switch, not by your own action on the other side. Because if your action on the other side is sufficient to overtake, you won't need to bid again. You're always overtaking someone else, never yourself.

Honestly, it's a non optional strategy for the auction house to run it this way. It almost ensures the hammer price is less than if it had been individual lots only. Especially for something easily trackable like a set of 12 cards.

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