Seller sues dealer/buyer for a high flip

[Peter_Spaeth]

It doesn't sound like the buyer committed any fraud, accepting him at his word he didn't know the true value either. What theory is left to the seller, mutual mistake in value so no contract was formed? Seems a stretch without researching it.

As Adam said, feels like more a question of ethics.

[ALBB]

Used to be .." back in the day " ..if a tremendous walk in collection came to a dealer....He bought it ( lowball offer ? probably ), and the bragging/ story/tale about it was looked on as - " wow, that lucky so and so " ," If I only knew ", " what a steal of a deal " ,etc.....

Now maybe more - " that scumbag dealer lowballed the guy " , " He should be ashamed " etc...

[robw1959]

We as a society are still much more laisse-faire capitalistic than any European country. Regardless of how the French court rules, I can't foresee how a situation like this could happen here. Maybe some day it will, but right now, it doesn't matter what your intentions are regarding a purchase. After the purchase has been made, it becomes your property to do with as you choose, and I can't see how that is going to change any time soon.

In our Constitution, we have a right to the pursuit of happiness, which has been classically construed as the individual ownership of property.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ALBB

Used to be .." back in the day " ..if a tremendous walk in collection came to a dealer....He bought it ( lowball offer ? probably ), and the bragging/ story/tale about it was looked on as - " wow, that lucky so and so " ," If I only knew ", " what a steal of a deal " ,etc.....

Now maybe more - " that scumbag dealer lowballed the guy " , " He should be ashamed " etc...

It baffles me when people that have never owned/run a real business and have no idea how they work comment on buying inventory. Dealers make money buying not selling.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It baffles me when people that have never owned/run a real business and have no idea how they work comment on buying inventory. Dealers make money buying not selling.

Of course, but one can still behave ethically and do well.

[Eric72]

A $4,400,000 item for $157 goes far beyond normal.

Hell, even if the mask didn’t go for 10x estimates, a $440,000 item for $157 goes way outside the lines. For those of you that would gladly fork over the $157 without saying a word, congratulations. Test concluded, it’s verified; you’re one of those scumbag pieces of $#!t that gives the hobby a bad name.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

A $4,400,000 item for $157 goes far beyond normal.

Hell, even if the mask didn’t go for 10x estimates, a $440,000 item for $157 goes way outside the lines. For those of you that would gladly fork over the $157 without saying a word, congratulations. Test concluded, it’s verified; you’re one of those scumbag pieces of $#!t that gives the hobby a bad name.

Many years ago, I sold a PSA 9 worth several K to a dealer. He was able to bump it to a 10, and when he sold it at a huge profit, he sent me part of his take. When I said you didn't have to do that, he said for him it was the right thing to do. That's how people should be.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Many years ago, I sold a PSA 9 worth several K to a dealer. He was able to bump it to a 10, and when he sold it at a huge profit, he sent me part of his take. When I said you didn't have to do that, he said for him it was the right thing to do. That's how people should be.

Was his name Gary Moser by chance?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Was his name Gary Moser by chance?

LOLOL good one. No, no "work" done to the card, just a friendly bump.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Was his name Gary Moser by chance?

Only half that story works for Moser. Hint, it's not the part where he shares the money lol.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Only half that story works for Moser. Hint, it's not the part where he shares the money lol.

Actually I don't think 9 to 10 was his thing, more a 5/6/7 to 8/9 guy.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Only half that story works for Moser. Hint, it's not the part where he shares the money lol.

Is he even still around?

[srik]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Many years ago, I sold a PSA 9 worth several K to a dealer. He was able to bump it to a 10, and when he sold it at a huge profit, he sent me part of his take. When I said you didn't have to do that, he said for him it was the right thing to do. That's how people should be.

I like this story, thanks for sharing it. And I agree. When in doubt, consider the Golden Rule. When confident (perhaps especially when confident), also consider the Golden Rule.

[packs]

After reading the article and knowing nothing else about what happened, it didn't really sound like the dealer knew what they had either. More like the dealer had a feeling there might be something there. I don't think they could have guessed the true origin. Without knowing anything more about the dealer it's hard to say they could know the outcome when they made the purchase.

[JollyElm]

1042. Gramboozled (or Widowhoodwinked)
When a little old lady selling her dear, late husband’s collection gets absolutely ripped off without even knowing it.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by packs

After reading the article and knowing nothing else about what happened, it didn't really sound like the dealer knew what they had either. More like the dealer had a feeling there might be something there. I don't think they could have guessed the true origin. Without knowing anything more about the dealer it's hard to say they could know the outcome when they made the purchase.

Your comment made me think of the "Americana / Folk Art" stuff that occasionally pops up on Antique Roadshow for ridiculous prices. If I was at a garage sale, and I saw an item that fits into the Americana category, I might be willing to take a risk that it could be worth me. And I don't know anything about Americana!

If I'm the seller in this article, and I'm paying for appraisals, and then carbon dating, I'm not sure how willing I would be to split money with the seller. He forked over some real cash for carbon dating. That ain't cheap.

But I agree with others. At some point, the ROI becomes too much, and throwing a bone back to the original seller is the right thing to do. I thought $300k was certainly a nice finder's fee.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by todeen

I thought $300k was certainly a nice finder's fee.

The problem is that offering a substantial amount like that often does nothing more than encourage more piggish behavior. Unless there is a strategic reason to make the offer, like a statutory mechanism that punishes a plaintiff for not accepting a reasonable offer, even an offer made in good faith like that is often interpreted by plaintiffs to be show of doubt. There is also a very fine line you have to walk in a case so as not to encourage the plaintiff's counsel. Once lawyers smells blood, they expect a feast.

In this situation, where the outcome is likely to be a total victory on one side or the other, not a court splitting the baby, the idea of compromise is more elusive.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by todeen

Your comment made me think of the "Americana / Folk Art" stuff that occasionally pops up on Antique Roadshow for ridiculous prices. If I was at a garage sale, and I saw an item that fits into the Americana category, I might be willing to take a risk that it could be worth me. And I don't know anything about Americana!

If I'm the seller in this article, and I'm paying for appraisals, and then carbon dating, I'm not sure how willing I would be to split money with the seller. He forked over some real cash for carbon dating. That ain't cheap.

But I agree with others. At some point, the ROI becomes too much, and throwing a bone back to the original seller is the right thing to do. I thought $300k was certainly a nice finder's fee.

Compared to the end result, caron dating isn't all that expensive.

https://www.directams.com/price-list

Cultural artifact - under 500 if waiting is ok, and under 600 if you're in a rush.

Just one of the first I found on a google search. I'd expect some higher and some lower.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by steve B

Compared to the end result, caron dating isn't all that expensive.

https://www.directams.com/price-list

Cultural artifact - under 500 if waiting is ok, and under 600 if you're in a rush.

Just one of the first I found on a google search. I'd expect some higher and some lower.

That's interesting. But I wonder if the carbon dating was messed up by collecting dust from other sources due to being displayed etc. Plus, doesn't carbon dating an item give you a range of dates +/- fifty years. You would think for an item this "young" that carbon dating would not be helpful and could be called into question.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Eric72

A $4,400,000 item for $157 goes far beyond normal.

Hell, even if the mask didn’t go for 10x estimates, a $440,000 item for $157 goes way outside the lines. For those of you that would gladly fork over the $157 without saying a word, congratulations. Test concluded, it’s verified; you’re one of those scumbag pieces of $#!t that gives the hobby a bad name.

If somebody offers me a 1953 Mantle GU jersey for $157, I'm buying it (taking the risk it's a fake,) getting it appraised, and if it's genuine, selling it at auction. When it's over, I'd go back to the original seller and offer her half.

Years ago I saw people bring stuff into card shows. One time a guy had a box of cards and told the dealer he wanted $50 for it. The dealer said it was worth much more and offered something around $300. The seller then said something like, "Oh, I didn't realize they were worth that much..." and walked away to get other offers.

So the dealer, trying to be a good guy, missed the deal completely when he could've had it for $50.

I also saw that same scenario play out with a different ending. When the seller started to walk away, the dealer said, "Wait a minute. Tell you what. I'll give you $100 for just these 6 cards." The seller agreed, not realizing he'd just sold 80% of the value in his box.

[packs]

I was thinking about the other outcome too. I don't think the original owner would be on the hook if the dealer did pay a $157 for a mask that after all the testing, examinations and appraisals he spent money on identified it as a $150 mask.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Eric72

A $4,400,000 item for $157 goes far beyond normal.

Hell, even if the mask didn’t go for 10x estimates, a $440,000 item for $157 goes way outside the lines. For those of you that would gladly fork over the $157 without saying a word, congratulations. Test concluded, it’s verified; you’re one of those scumbag pieces of $#!t that gives the hobby a bad name.

That's the sort of response I was hoping we would not have in this thread. I don't think there is a specific price point or percentage at which you can just say that the buyer is "one of those scumbag pieces of $#!t that gives the hobby a bad name" without a lot more information, and when you take that sort of attitude right off the bat, you kill off any conversation about it. I think there is room for reasonable people to differ on the issue. I could point out myriad real-world examples, from the entire web sites dedicated to thrift store finds, to the many transactions we see every day at shows and on eBay, to the guy who buys a raw card and gets a 10 from PSA on it. Everyone who buys a card thinks he got a deal and everyone who sells a card thinks he got a deal. They can't all be right. Every transaction is a zero-sum one: somebody wins, somebody loses. The nature of the win and loss depends on the metrics by which you measure. I've overpaid for the last card I needed to finish a tough set. It was worthwhile to me, even if, financially speaking, it was not an objectively "good" deal. It was a good deal for me so I can enjoy the set.

Not directed at you, but more generally, I don't get the knee-jerk hostility to someone seeing and making a great deal. This is a hyper-capitalist society and economy: the whole point of trade is to make money, to get the advantage. Excluding criminality or fraud--which no one thinks is OK--why is there a tendency to attack people who do it? I bought an item from a walk-in at a show and paid his ask because I thought it was really special. I put it into an auction, and it sold for 17X what I paid. Does that make me a scumbag piece of crap? At the same show, I picked up a card that later sold for a third of what I paid. Should I sue the seller? Not as far as I am concerned. That's how it goes.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That's the sort of response I was hoping we would not have in this thread. I don't think there is a specific price point or percentage at which you can just say that the buyer is "one of those scumbag pieces of $#!t that gives the hobby a bad name" without a lot more information, and when you take that sort of attitude right off the bat, you kill off any conversation about it. I think there is room for reasonable people to differ on the issue. I could point out myriad real-world examples, from the entire web sites dedicated to thrift store finds, to the many transactions we see every day at shows and on eBay, to the guy who buys a raw card and gets a 10 from PSA on it. Everyone who buys a card thinks he got a deal and everyone who sells a card thinks he got a deal. They can't all be right. Every transaction is a zero-sum one: somebody wins, somebody loses. The nature of the win and loss depends on the metrics by which you measure. I've overpaid for the last card I needed to finish a tough set. It was worthwhile to me, even if, financially speaking, it was not an objectively "good" deal. It was a good deal for me so I can enjoy the set.

Not directed at you, but more generally, I don't get the knee-jerk hostility to someone seeing and making a great deal. This is a hyper-capitalist society and economy: the whole point of trade is to make money, to get the advantage. Excluding criminality or fraud--which no one thinks is OK--why is there a tendency to attack people who do it? I bought an item from a walk-in at a show and paid his ask because I thought it was really special. I put it into an auction, and it sold for 17X what I paid. Does that make me a scumbag piece of crap? At the same show, I picked up a card that later sold for a third of what I paid. Should I sue the seller? Not as far as I am concerned. That's how it goes.

Saying you had hoped we wouldn't have a response like mine, because it kills off any conversation, doesn't sit quite right with me.

Are you saying we should only write things in line with your beliefs and expectations? I don't think so. I've been on this forum for over a decade, and I've read many of your posts. I really don't have that image of you in my mind.

It wasn't a knee-jerk response, nor was it the issue of somebody making money. In your 17X example, I see nothing wrong with that. No, in my opinion, it doesn't make you a scumbag piece of crap. However, in this case, we're talking about a 28,000X flip. It's like finding a way to buy somebody's house for less than twenty bucks.

I wouldn't want to be the one who determines the line of demarcation between good deal and scumbag POS. However, this is definitely across any line I would consider reasonable.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Saying you had hoped we wouldn't have a response like mine, because it kills off any conversation, doesn't sit quite right with me.

Are you saying we should only write things in line with your beliefs and expectations? I don't think so. I've been on this forum for over a decade, and I've read many of your posts. I really don't have that image of you in my mind.

It wasn't a knee-jerk response, nor was it the issue of somebody making money. In your 17X example, I see nothing wrong with that. No, in my opinion, it doesn't make you a scumbag piece of crap. However, in this case, we're talking about a 28,000X flip. It's like finding a way to buy somebody's house for less than twenty bucks.

I wouldn't want to be the one who determines the line of demarcation between good deal and scumbag POS. However, this is definitely across any line I would consider reasonable.

So how many X does a flip change from good to scumbag? And are there other factors that change that?

I've had one that was more than 2400x,

Saw a plate in a thrift shop, priced at 25 cents (typical at the time)
It was restaurant china, with a named restaurant, and a cactus motif. Looked pretty cool, and I figured as a random restaurant china plate maybe $10 on ebay. Apparently it was a rare pattern from Fred Harvey restaurants. Total surprise to me once I started looking it up. The small size was the only other one I could find, and that went for $50. Put it on Ebay, and it sold for over 600...

Plenty of other examples of stuff like this.

Dealer I know bought a postcard from a dollar box. Thought it was designed by Mucha. It was.
It was also not listed in the book about his postcards.
He sold it to a guy he knew who collected them for 500. (Buyers price, this dealer often does that, just hands you stuff he got for you and asks how much you'd pay.)
That guy sold it to a bigger dealer for 1000....
It ended up in a major european auction and sold for 10,000.

Should eveyone all the way back to the dollar box guy get a bigger cut?

I have a lot of stuff in my collections that were things dealers and others didn't recognize as anything at all special.

Of course, I also have a bunch of stuff that I took a chance on that isn't anything special.

[drcy]

French law and views may be different than American. This case may have no bearing on that Honus Wagner bought in Iowa City.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by steve B

So how many X does a flip change from good to scumbag? And are there other factors that change that?

I've had one that was more than 2400x,

Saw a plate in a thrift shop, priced at 25 cents (typical at the time)
It was restaurant china, with a named restaurant, and a cactus motif. Looked pretty cool, and I figured as a random restaurant china plate maybe $10 on ebay. Apparently it was a rare pattern from Fred Harvey restaurants. Total surprise to me once I started looking it up. The small size was the only other one I could find, and that went for $50. Put it on Ebay, and it sold for over 600...

Plenty of other examples of stuff like this.

Dealer I know bought a postcard from a dollar box. Thought it was designed by Mucha. It was.
It was also not listed in the book about his postcards.
He sold it to a guy he knew who collected them for 500. (Buyers price, this dealer often does that, just hands you stuff he got for you and asks how much you'd pay.)
That guy sold it to a bigger dealer for 1000....
It ended up in a major european auction and sold for 10,000.

Should eveyone all the way back to the dollar box guy get a bigger cut?

I have a lot of stuff in my collections that were things dealers and others didn't recognize as anything at all special.

Of course, I also have a bunch of stuff that I took a chance on that isn't anything special.

What if the market moved because I got lucky when I bought it?

Real life example: I bought a 1951B PSA 8 Mays for $48k in June 2020. A few months later, another example sold at auction for $300k+. If I sold mine a few months later, should I go back to the seller and share some of the sales proceeds?

[Snapolit1]

Agreed. I go through old post cards and photos on eBay all the time, hoping to find Lou Gehrig or Oscar Charleston sticking his mug into something unexpectedly. Would I contact a seller and say “hey, do you realize …” Eh,
Probably not.
I think that’s very different than playing an active role in scamming someone. A large part of collecting for many of us is finding the proverbial lottery ticket.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That's the sort of response I was hoping we would not have in this thread. I don't think there is a specific price point or percentage at which you can just say that the buyer is "one of those scumbag pieces of $#!t that gives the hobby a bad name" without a lot more information, and when you take that sort of attitude right off the bat, you kill off any conversation about it. I think there is room for reasonable people to differ on the issue. I could point out myriad real-world examples, from the entire web sites dedicated to thrift store finds, to the many transactions we see every day at shows and on eBay, to the guy who buys a raw card and gets a 10 from PSA on it. Everyone who buys a card thinks he got a deal and everyone who sells a card thinks he got a deal. They can't all be right. Every transaction is a zero-sum one: somebody wins, somebody loses. The nature of the win and loss depends on the metrics by which you measure. I've overpaid for the last card I needed to finish a tough set. It was worthwhile to me, even if, financially speaking, it was not an objectively "good" deal. It was a good deal for me so I can enjoy the set.

Not directed at you, but more generally, I don't get the knee-jerk hostility to someone seeing and making a great deal. This is a hyper-capitalist society and economy: the whole point of trade is to make money, to get the advantage. Excluding criminality or fraud--which no one thinks is OK--why is there a tendency to attack people who do it? I bought an item from a walk-in at a show and paid his ask because I thought it was really special. I put it into an auction, and it sold for 17X what I paid. Does that make me a scumbag piece of crap? At the same show, I picked up a card that later sold for a third of what I paid. Should I sue the seller? Not as far as I am concerned. That's how it goes.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Every transaction is a zero-sum one: somebody wins, somebody loses. The nature of the win and loss depends on the metrics by which you measure. I've overpaid for the last card I needed to finish a tough set. It was worthwhile to me, even if, financially speaking, it was not an objectively "good" deal. It was a good deal for me so I can enjoy the set.

I disagree with your statement that every transaction is zero-sum, and you yourself provided an example where both sides won. I've been involved in countless deals when I bought at a fair price and was happy, as was the seller. I think the free market tends to produce win-win outcomes, since either party can freely and easily decline.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I don't get the knee-jerk hostility to someone seeing and making a great deal. This is a hyper-capitalist society and economy: the whole point of trade is to make money, to get the advantage. Excluding criminality or fraud--which no one thinks is OK--why is there a tendency to attack people who do it?

I agree. Although I do think it's more legitimate, as a buyer, to agree to a seller's low ask price, as opposed to initiating negotiations by offering a way lowball offer.

[timn1]

I agree, the "knee-jerk piece of $&@*" comment is not productive

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That's the sort of response I was hoping we would not have in this thread. I don't think there is a specific price point or percentage at which you can just say that the buyer is "one of those scumbag pieces of $#!t that gives the hobby a bad name" without a lot more information, and when you take that sort of attitude right off the bat, you kill off any conversation about it. I think there is room for reasonable people to differ on the issue. I could point out myriad real-world examples, from the entire web sites dedicated to thrift store finds, to the many transactions we see every day at shows and on eBay, to the guy who buys a raw card and gets a 10 from PSA on it. Everyone who buys a card thinks he got a deal and everyone who sells a card thinks he got a deal. They can't all be right. Every transaction is a zero-sum one: somebody wins, somebody loses. The nature of the win and loss depends on the metrics by which you measure. I've overpaid for the last card I needed to finish a tough set. It was worthwhile to me, even if, financially speaking, it was not an objectively "good" deal. It was a good deal for me so I can enjoy the set.

Not directed at you, but more generally, I don't get the knee-jerk hostility to someone seeing and making a great deal. This is a hyper-capitalist society and economy: the whole point of trade is to make money, to get the advantage. Excluding criminality or fraud--which no one thinks is OK--why is there a tendency to attack people who do it? I bought an item from a walk-in at a show and paid his ask because I thought it was really special. I put it into an auction, and it sold for 17X what I paid. Does that make me a scumbag piece of crap? At the same show, I picked up a card that later sold for a third of what I paid. Should I sue the seller? Not as far as I am concerned. That's how it goes.

[Exhibitman]

Eric, I don't expect everyone to agree with me or for people I disagree with not to voice their views. I want to hear those views, but I also want to hear the rationales behind the views. These are difficult subjects and people hold a variety of views. My point is that when you come out of the box condemning anyone who doesn't agree with you, it replaces a discussion with a fight. The same is true when anyone labels a position as "the right thing" or as "the ethical thing". That's the end of the discussion too, because any other position is "the wrong thing" or the unethical thing, by definition.

I appreciate any heartfelt point of view. I may not agree with a position, and I certainly won't accept it if that is the case, but as long as it is offered in good faith, I want to hear it and bat it around with everyone.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Eric, I don't expect everyone to agree with me or for people I disagree with not to voice their views. I want to hear those views, but I also want to hear the rationales behind the views. These are difficult subjects and people hold a variety of views. My point is that when you come out of the box condemning anyone who doesn't agree with you, it replaces a discussion with a fight. The same is true when anyone labels a position as "the right thing" or as "the ethical thing". That's the end of the discussion too, because any other position is "the wrong thing" or the unethical thing, by definition.

I appreciate any heartfelt point of view. I may not agree with a position, and I certainly won't accept it if that is the case, but as long as it is offered in good faith, I want to hear it and bat it around with everyone.

How about:

"I can't believe I'm typing this..."

Not because they're surprised at their own position. But because they can't believe that anyone in their right mind would ever disagree with them.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Eric72

A $4,400,000 item for $157 goes far beyond normal.

Hell, even if the mask didn’t go for 10x estimates, a $440,000 item for $157 goes way outside the lines. For those of you that would gladly fork over the $157 without saying a word, congratulations. Test concluded, it’s verified; you’re one of those scumbag pieces of $#!t that gives the hobby a bad name.

I do not think I have ever met a collector and/or investor, who if offered a genuine T206 Wagner for $157, would not buy it.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by G1911

I do not think I have ever met a collector and/or investor, who if offered a genuine T206 Wagner for $157, would not buy it.

You've never met someone who would stop the seller and let them know what they had? That's unfortunate.

[ALBB]

Its funny..

its looked at differently when its the " old story " ...the guy at garage sale buys a " reprint " 1776 US / Independence era document for 5 bucks...and it turns out its real and valued at 1 million bucks

Does it come down to " he didn't know it was real" or "knew it might have been real ", or" knew its definitely real "?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Eric72

You've never met someone who would stop the seller and let them know what they had? That's unfortunate.

Perhaps it is. Or perhaps this moral high horse is just not really how people and the world work. Show me a man who wouldn’t hand me the $157 and take the card and I will show you the perfect man or a liar.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Perhaps it is. Or perhaps this moral high horse is just not really how people and the world work. Show me a man who wouldn’t hand me the $157 and take the card and I will show you the perfect man or a liar.

Pathetic, IMO. And no moral high horse either. Just how I think.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I do not think I have ever met a collector and/or investor, who if offered a genuine T206 Wagner for $157, would not buy it.

You haven't met me or Eric then. And I suspect countless others. No way would I want that on my conscience.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You haven't met me or Eric then. And I suspect countless others. No way would I want that on my conscience.

I am sure many will say it. But life teaches that very very few would actually choose the moral horse over hundreds of thousands of dollars when offered directly to them without any coercion or illegalities or proposing it themselves.

Congratulations to those of you who are paragons of human virtue and would never take such an offer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am sure many will say it. But life teaches that very very few would actually choose the moral horse over hundreds of thousands of dollars when offered directly to them without any coercion or illegalities or proposing it themselves.

Congratulations to those of you who are paragons of human virtue and would never take such an offer.

No moral high horse or virtue signalling, and far from perfect. Just being truthful. Not everyone is ruled by money.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am sure many will say it. But life teaches that very very few would actually choose the moral horse over hundreds of thousands of dollars when offered directly to them without any coercion or illegalities or proposing it themselves.

Congratulations to those of you who are paragons of human virtue and would never take such an offer.

There are many who would say, if only to themselves, they would hand over the cash and take the card. I'm fairly certain, though, even some of those folks would change course at the moment of truth.

It's really not a moral high horse or some "perfect man or a liar" situation. It's just one possible course of action. For me, and others I'm sure, it's the one that makes the most sense.

And sure, there are some who would profess (publicly or otherwise) they'd do the right thing. Then, when the opportunity arose, they would silently grab the card and high-tail it out of there.

Like many "big" decisions in life, we don't really know what we'll do until confronted with the choice. I believe, however, it would be folly to think everyone would make the same choice when presented with a situation like this.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You haven't met me or Eric then. And I suspect countless others. No way would I want that on my conscience.

How about you walk into a used book store and are thumbing through an old book and sitting in the middle of the book is a Wagner card. Pristine. So the seller doesn’t know it’s there and never knew it was there. Same equation? Just curious.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

How about you walk into a used book store and are thumbing through an old book and sitting in the middle of the book is a Wagner card. Pristine. So the seller doesn’t know it’s there and never knew it was there. Same equation? Just curious.

I hate the Socratic method unless I'm the one doing it. I guess analytically it's probably the same, although in that situation I'd sure give some thought to how to distinguish it.