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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk

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  #1  
Old 11-04-2023, 04:14 PM
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Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
If it was my ballot, I would immediately vote for:
Todd Helton
Adrian Beltre
Joe Mauer
Jeff Kent

I would also vote for, since they put in Ortiz and cannot logically keep the steroid line anymore:
Alex Rodriguez
Gary Sheffield

Utley, Wright and Beltran I'd have to examine closer to decide.


IMO

Cheaters can go in after they die (they don't deserve the honor more than Santo or Minoso, etc.) or after I die (cus I won't care then) whichever comes last.

bonds doesn't not deserve to be honored the same way Mr. Aaron was.

Again, lower the standards once I'm gone...I definitely won't give a rodents lower GI track about it.

replies? blah-blah-blah I've heard ALL the other arguments...do not care.

IMO
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Last edited by clydepepper; 11-04-2023 at 04:15 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-09-2023, 04:22 PM
bk400 bk400 is offline
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Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
IMO

Cheaters can go in after they die (they don't deserve the honor more than Santo or Minoso, etc.) or after I die (cus I won't care then) whichever comes last.

bonds doesn't not deserve to be honored the same way Mr. Aaron was.

Again, lower the standards once I'm gone...I definitely won't give a rodents lower GI track about it.

replies? blah-blah-blah I've heard ALL the other arguments...do not care.

IMO
.

I will make the narrow argument that Hank Aaron's accomplishments approach those of Jackie Robinson. I think it is staggering what he did under so much pressure and with so much racial hatred directed toward him. Barry Bonds could have hit 900 home runs; he'll never be Hank Aaron.
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  #3  
Old 11-09-2023, 05:17 PM
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How do we know what players from the past would have done had PEDs beein available to them? Aaron took greenies, yes? I think the assumption that players in other eras were morally superior is borne of nostalgia bias.
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  #4  
Old 11-09-2023, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
How do we know what players from the past would have done had PEDs beein available to them? Aaron took greenies, yes? I think the assumption that players in other eras were morally superior is borne of nostalgia bias.
I can't remember the history book I read, authors last name was Reiss, but his book showed how baseball, gambling, and cheating were connected. Fathers didn't want daughters to date ball players.

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  #5  
Old 11-09-2023, 07:41 PM
bk400 bk400 is offline
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(A lot of fathers today would probably prefer their daughters marry the nice heart surgeon, as opposed to Derek Jeter or A Rod...

Rightly or wrongly, players are judged by the standards of the time. I'm not a baseball historian, but I suspect that Pete Rose in the 1920s is a first ballot Hall of Famer. Babe Ruth in the 1980s might have ended up like....Pete Rose.

I suppose that there are some athletes whose legacies are tarnished at that inflection point when standards change and the "everyone else is doing it argument" suddenly fails in the public eye. Lance Armstrong comes to mind, and maybe that also applies to a guy like Barry Bonds.

But I still maintain that Hank Aaron's athletic legacy is far greater than the sum of his statistics. Hank Aaron to me is like Jesse Owens. Carl Lewis may have won more gold medals in the end, but he'll never be Jesse Owens.
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  #6  
Old 11-09-2023, 07:59 PM
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Not taking anything at all away from Aaron's greatness, but you are the one who brought Bonds into it. To me Owens and Lewis are both great. What more could anyone have asked Lewis to accomplish? I don't see any need to compare them.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-09-2023 at 08:00 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-10-2023, 04:33 AM
bk400 bk400 is offline
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Another poster made the point that Bonds should not be honored in the same way as Hank Aaron.

In response, I argued that Bonds would never be Hank Aaron, even if his stats were clearly better (and, somewhat obviously, if his stats weren't considered tainted because of PEDs).
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2023, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
How do we know what players from the past would have done had PEDs beein available to them? Aaron took greenies, yes? I think the assumption that players in other eras were morally superior is borne of nostalgia bias.
We know that pitchers have always done nefarious things to baseballs, and many hitters over the years have modified (corked) their bats, and there are plenty of stories about deadball era third basemen, like McGraw, tugging at a baserunner's belt to hold him up (when there were only one or two umpires.)

Whether these things can be considered immoral I'm not sure, but certainly they were attempts to gain advantage while operating outside the rules. If old-time ballplayers had access to pills and needles that could make them better and extend their careers, of course some would've gone that route.
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2023, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
We know that pitchers have always done nefarious things to baseballs, and many hitters over the years have modified (corked) their bats, and there are plenty of stories about deadball era third basemen, like McGraw, tugging at a baserunner's belt to hold him up (when there were only one or two umpires.)

Whether these things can be considered immoral I'm not sure, but certainly they were attempts to gain advantage while operating outside the rules. If old-time ballplayers had access to pills and needles that could make them better and extend their careers, of course some would've gone that route.
I think within an era it's fair to contrast athletes who don't seem to have cheated with those that did (Carl Lewis vs Ben Johnson, Bonds vs Griffey, etc.). But I don't buy the generational comparisons and smarmy assertions that past generations were somehow, as a whole, more virtuous and today's players are scum. My guess is most of the guys who popped greenies also would have done stronger PEDs had they been available.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-29-2023 at 02:19 PM.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2023, 02:42 PM
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I am not sure the PED/'roids guys deserve to be in the Hall, but to some extent they are a victim of their own success.

PEDs can be traced all the way back to 1889, when Pud Galvin used Brown-Sequard Elixir, which is testosterone derived from other animals, most notably dogs and guinea pigs. Even Babe Ruth tried to inject himself with extract from sheep testicles in 1925. This act only made him ill and forced him to miss some playing time. So cheaters have gotten more sophisticated and better at it over time.

Steroids found there way into baseball in the 1970s. Tom House, a former pitcher for a few teams, was the first player to openly acknowledge that there were 6 or 7 players per team experimenting with steroids and human-growth hormone. Steroids then took a backseat during the 1980s when amphetamines became the drug of choice. Players from Mike Schmidt to journeyman Dale Berra, were using amphetamines.

MLB practically sanctioned the use of steroids with their lack of any testing/enforcement. In 1990, Congress cracked down on anabolic steroids with the Anabolic Steroids Control Act, which effectively made them an illegal drug. The next year in 1991, MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent made it clear in a memo that it was against the rules to use steroids, but there was no plan for testing/enforcement.

If players like McGwire, Sosa and Bonds hadn't completely re-written the record books, few people would care about their "cheating."

While Bonds is probably a reprehensible human, I do feel like he probably deserves to be in the Hall more than most of the other guys from the era. He was the best player in baseball before people started modern 'roids, and was a late mover in terms of starting his cheating in the 21st century after being tired of being left behind by the likes of McGwire and Sosa.

But because Bonds was better at cheating than others, he seems to get punished more. That and the fact that he won't admit he did it, and is generally not well liked.

So cheating has been around forever. They just got really good at during the steroid era.
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  #11  
Old 11-29-2023, 04:46 PM
cliffyb cliffyb is offline
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I think Beltre for sure - he has HOF stats. Helton for sure. And if Utley is a strong candidate, then how can Kent not be? Compare their stats. Kent even has an MVP and bigger power numbers. Fewer injuries too.
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