1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[Brian Van Horn]

I have held them. The guy who originally had them at a show indicated the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original. If you can't accept honesty, I can't help. No offense. They are fakes.

[hcv123]

The attached card will be offered in the next Memory Lane auction. I'm not super familiar with the history on these, but this example was a lone example from a large eclectic collection. I see no evidence of any kind of erasure. It was originally mislabeled by PSA without the Herpolsheimer designation and was recently corrected. If there was only a single Collins example from the original find and a single example from the recent find, then this was not from either.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The attached card will be offered in the next Memory Lane auction. I'm not super familiar with the history on these, but this example was a lone example from a large eclectic collection. I see no evidence of any kind of erasure. It was originally mislabeled by PSA without the Herpolsheimer designation and was recently corrected. If there was only a single Collins example from the original find and a single example from the recent find, then this was not from either.

Now there's a plot twist.

[Brian Van Horn]

Howard,

The best to you with the auction. Obviously I will not be bidding.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Brian Van Horn

[Brian Van Horn]

Howard,

I have a question. How is it PSA listed the Collins under series of 80?

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Howard,

I have a question. How is it PSA listed the Collins under series of 80?

They incorrectly labeled it as an E121 series of 80.

[terjung]

Perhaps the most interesting thing about that Collins to me is the presence of what appears to be a wet sheet transfer on the front.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by terjung

Perhaps the most interesting thing about that Collins to me is the presence of what appears to be a wet sheet transfer on the front.

Many (I did not check all of them) of the LOTG cards have what looks like a wet sheet transfer on the front. Is that an indicator of something? I am not clear if that is an argument for them being real or being fake.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The attached card will be offered in the next Memory Lane auction. I'm not super familiar with the history on these, but this example was a lone example from a large eclectic collection. I see no evidence of any kind of erasure. It was originally mislabeled by PSA without the Herpolsheimer designation and was recently corrected. If there was only a single Collins example from the original find and a single example from the recent find, then this was not from either.

Howard, I would be curious to know what you can tell us about the date you acquired this and whether it was already graded. The Herps Collins sold by Legendary looks very much like the card you show-- on the front anyway (big writing on the back).

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Howard, I would be curious to know what you can tell us about the date you acquired this and whether it was already graded. The Herps Collins sold by Legendary looks very much like the card you show-- on the front anyway (big writing on the back).

I got the card in September. It was in the holder I pictured - incorrectly labeled as an E121 and not identified as a Herpolsheimer. I had PSA correct it (I don't think I have a pic of the corrected holder). I am not sure how long the collector I got it from had it. VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

Can you post a pic of the Legendary example to compare? Or email to me at hcv123@att.net if you aren't comfortable posting.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I got the card in September. It was in the holder I pictured - incorrectly labeled as an E121 and not identified as a Herpolsheimer. I had PSA correct it (I don't think I have a pic of the corrected holder). I am not sure how long the collector I got it from had it. VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

Can you post a pic of the Legendary example to compare? Or email to me at hcv123@att.net if you aren't comfortable posting.

How could a grading company, still number 1 in the industry in terms of volume and cards graded, make such a pathetic error by both misidentifying the set and excluding the advertiser. Where is the quality control?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Yoda

How could a grading company, still number 1 in the industry in terms of volume and cards graded, make such a pathetic error by both misidentifying the set and excluding the advertiser. Where is the quality control?

John, all I can say and as you likely already know, it happens frequently. You can still find many instances of 1916 cards labeled as Sporting News whether the back is blank or carries another advertiser's back--including Herpolsheimer. Granted, I doubt that occurs much any longer.

In defense of PSA (I can't believe I'm saying this), the set is obscure and was probably not in their database as a recognized set when the card was first submitted, so they gave it the more blanket E121 designation, much like they did with the 1916 cards.

[calvindog]

I'm surprised there's still any discussion about the authenticity of these cards. If you handle them raw, there would be no question that they are real. We've all seen and handled fake cards. These aren't fake. Also, are the 1916 Herpos also believed to be fake? Or just 1921?

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

John, all I can say and as you likely already know, it happens frequently. You can still find many instances of 1916 cards labeled as Sporting News whether the back is blank or carries another advertiser's back--including Herpolsheimer. Granted, I doubt that occurs much any longer.

In defense of PSA (I can't believe I'm saying this), the set is obscure and was probably not in their database as a recognized set when the card was first submitted, so they gave it the more blanket E121 designation, much like they did with the 1916 cards.

Todd, fair enough. Mustn't grumble about TPG'ers on Thanksgiving Day. I will wait until Xmas. Humbug.

[Snapolit1]

I think the threadbare to non-existent case for counterfeit just took another hit.

https://loveofthegameauctions.com/an...ST_EMAIL_ID%5D

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I got the card in September. It was in the holder I pictured - incorrectly labeled as an E121 and not identified as a Herpolsheimer. I had PSA correct it (I don't think I have a pic of the corrected holder). I am not sure how long the collector I got it from had it. VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

Can you post a pic of the Legendary example to compare? Or email to me at hcv123@att.net if you aren't comfortable posting.

Howard, I've got cooking duty but will try and post a pic by tomorrow. Maybe you can pull the sale from VCP, unless it was part of a lot sale that VCP doesn't cover. The Collins Herp was in a Legendary auction that I entered into my database in March 2015. My link to the auction is no longer good, as I believe Legendary archives were sold or otherwise went kaput. I screenshot the auction pics at the time and they are sadly small, but I will post what I can. The serial number on the PSA 6MK Herps Collins is 90406430.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by hcv123

VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

I think that used to be Charlie Barokas' handle. Haven't seen him in a while. Don't know if he's still active.

[Schlesinj]

Buys & Sells lots of type 1 photos on eBay.

[CW]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I got the card in September. It was in the holder I pictured - incorrectly labeled as an E121 and not identified as a Herpolsheimer. I had PSA correct it (I don't think I have a pic of the corrected holder). I am not sure how long the collector I got it from had it. VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

Can you post a pic of the Legendary example to compare? Or email to me at hcv123@att.net if you aren't comfortable posting.

Not the best image, but PSA has new high resolution images of the Eddie Collins card on their cert verification site:

https://www.psacard.com/cert/50067761

[Exhibitman]

Seems to me that if you haven't held the cards in hand and gone over them, you have no real basis to opine on their authenticity. had a situation recently where I purchased a rare PCL card that looked wrong when I got it in hand and was able to pin down its counterfeit origins (with the help of Mark M.) and get a refund. I could not tell just seeing pictures, I had to have it in hand and compare it with others to see what was wrong with it. That isn't what I am reading here. "Someone told me" is not only hearsay, it would be laughed out of court as the basis for expert opinion. Multiple experts with hands-on experience have seen these cards and are confident they are genuine. That, to me, is far more persuasive than hearsay. I Absent that hands-on experience, arguing these cards are fakes seems pointless and, frankly, unfair to Al and everyone else who put in the work behind this auction. Unless there is something more, "someone told me they are fakes" is a POV that adds nothing substantive to the discussion.

[Steve D]

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

No address Steve, must be fake.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

Clearly a clever attempt by the counterfeiter to change the historical record to make the cards appear legitimate...

(please note the lack of an availble sarcasm font)

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by aquarian sports cards

clearly a clever attempt by the counterfeiter to change the historical record to make the cards appear legitimate...

(please note the lack of an availble sarcasm font)

lol!

[slidekellyslide]

Here is a postcard of Herpolsheimer’s from around 1910. No address on the front or back of the card. They simply felt they didn’t need to put their address out there on advertisements.

[Steve D]

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

The primary sources from 1921 are probably fakes planted by aliens or something

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/ne...50D737BB8BF039

From Genealogy Bank

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[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Seems to me that if you haven't held the cards in hand and gone over them, you have no real basis to opine on their authenticity. had a situation recently where I purchased a rare PCL card that looked wrong when I got it in hand and was able to pin down its counterfeit origins (with the help of Mark M.) and get a refund. I could not tell just seeing pictures, I had to have it in hand and compare it with others to see what was wrong with it. That isn't what I am reading here. "Someone told me" is not only hearsay, it would be laughed out of court as the basis for expert opinion. Multiple experts with hands-on experience have seen these cards and are confident they are genuine. That, to me, is far more persuasive than hearsay. I Absent that hands-on experience, arguing these cards are fakes seems pointless and, frankly, unfair to Al and everyone else who put in the work behind this auction. Unless there is something more, "someone told me they are fakes" is a POV that adds nothing substantive to the discussion.

Adam,

I did hold some of the cards in my hands at Robert Morris in May 1999. With the marking of $1.00 on some of the cards, I still considered a purchase.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I have held them. The guy who originally had them at a show indicated the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original. If you can't accept honesty, I can't help. No offense. They are fakes.

Even if those cards were fake, I am not clear how this impacts the separate group of cards found 20 years later. I would think that if someone created a fake batch of cards, they would not decide to introduce them to the public in two groupings that far apart.

I believe you are being honest in reporting what the dealer said, but I am unclear what "the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original" means.

Was it that he (the dealer) wrote the prices on the back because he thought the cards weren't original (so it didn't matter that he wrote on the cards, since they were fake anyway)?

Was it that the prices were low because the cards were not original?

Or was it that when he came into possession of the cards they already had prices on the back, which he took as an indicator that the cards were not original?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

Even if those cards were fake, I am not clear how this impacts the separate group of cards found 20 years later. I would think that if someone created a fake batch of cards, they would not decide to introduce them to the public in two groupings that far apart.

I believe you are being honest in reporting what the dealer said, but I am unclear what "the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original" means.

Was it that he (the dealer) wrote the prices on the back because he thought the cards weren't original (so it didn't matter that he wrote on the cards, since they were fake anyway)?

Was it that the prices were low because the cards were not original?

Or was it that when he came into possession of the cards they already had prices on the back, which he took as an indicator that the cards were not original?

Michael,

I have actually been waiting for that question to come up. If the first group was a bunch of fakes what would have kept the second one from being the same minus the dollar asking prices on the back? 15 years after the first group was offered for auctions on eBay and twenty years after the dealer at the Robert Morris show there was news of another group (the current ones) in 2019. At this pace a third group should be printed up by 2034, but by a different person or persons. Have to allow for mortality. Looking forward to that discussion. Also, I have to wonder if by that point Artificial Intelligence will play a hand in the fraud. Oh, but that is just theory by this turkey 🦃 on Thanksgiving.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Michael,

I have actually been waiting for that question to come up. If the first group was a bunch of fakes what would have kept the second one from being the same minus the dollar asking prices on the back? 15 years after the first group was offered for auctions on eBay and twenty years after the dealer at the Robert Morris show there was news of another group (the current ones) in 2019. At this pace a third group should be printed up by 2034, but by a different person or persons. Have to allow for mortality. Looking forward to that discussion. Also, I have to wonder if by that point Artificial Intelligence will play a hand in the fraud. Oh, but that is just theory by this turkey 🦃 on Thanksgiving.

You were waiting for the question to come up but you didn't answer it. Nor did you answer my question as to whether these cards are totally fake or just the backs. Given your keen eye when you handled it/them and the complete honesty shown to you by this dealer, I would appreciate your responses.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

You were waiting for the question to come up but you didn't answer it. Nor did you answer my question as to whether these cards are totally fake or just the backs. Given your keen eye when you handled it/them and the complete honesty shown to you by this dealer, I would appreciate your responses.

The obvious indications the dealer knew the cards were fake is he stated they weren't authentic and at the same time he was waiving his left hand over them. Satisfied? The cards then and now are fake. The ones we're on pace for in 2034 will be fake. No Nostradamus in this equation.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

The obvious indications the dealer knew the cards were fake is he stated they weren't authentic and at the same time he was waiving his left hand over them. Satisfied? The cards then and now are fake. The ones we're on pace for in 2034 will be fake. No Nostradamus in this equation.

You still haven't answered the question as to whether he discussed the price markings and if so what was said. You also did not answer my question about your own observations-- are they complete fakes or just the backs? So to answer your question-- no, I am not satisfied. Is that all you got? You can say they're fake in each and every one of your posts-- put it in your signature block if you wish-- that doesn't make it so. Not even close.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

You still haven't answered the question as to whether he discussed the price markings and if so what was said. You also did not answer my question about your own observations-- are they complete fakes or just the backs? So to answer your question-- no, I am not satisfied. Is that all you got? You can say they're fake in each and every one of your posts-- put it in your signature block if you wish-- that doesn't make it so. Not even close.

The prices on the back were the prices he asked. This is after he stated they were not real. I didn't ask for a definition between front and bank. Not real is good enough for me. Thank you for the cross examination.