1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by G1911

A dealer doesn't have incentive to claim a card they are selling is not real. However, it does happen. I've been a beneficiary of it it happening, a dealer described a series of particularly valuable proof sheets in my tobacco boxing niche as "early reprints". They were not early reprints at all (there has never been any fake or reprint, 1 of the cards in it was unknown to exist until 2006 and thus could not really have been counterfeited long ago, and in hand the items are clearly genuine proof sheets and not fakes after thorough examination).

The claim doesn't dictate the result. A thing is not true or false because someone says it is true or false; it is actually true or actually false. We would never believe a card is real just because the person selling it says it is real; same idea.

Greg,

Thank you, but I can't and won't get around the guy's honesty. That was the impression he left which was honesty and I know the two lawyers in this thread will have issue with the claim and this is meant as no shot at them. The cards are fakes and I don't need to capitalize the word or on the opportunity because they are fakes.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Greg,

Thank you, but I can't and won't get around the guy's honesty. That was the impression he left which was honesty and I know the two lawyers in this thread will have issue with the claim and this is meant as no shot at them. The cards are fakes and I don't need to capitalize the word or on the opportunity because they are fakes.

A person can be honest and also incorrect at the same time...


Brian (honestly incorrect on occasion, and even possibly on Thanksgiving)

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

A person can be honest and also incorrect at the same time...


Brian (honestly incorrect on occasion, and even possibly on Thanksgiving)

LOL. Honestly down with a cold on Thanksgiving and had to cancel going to three parties, but............the cards are fake.

Happy Thanksgiving

[G1911]

I just cannot comprehend believing everything I hear to be true if that thing I hear was said confidently by someone else. This preference for narrative over any objective analysis, research or reason is why so many falsehoods continue to popularly circulate in the hobby. Perhaps the cards are fakes, but if there is no reasonable case for that and there is a reasonable case that they are real, then reason dictates the answer.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Greg,

Thank you, but I can't and won't get around the guy's honesty. That was the impression he left which was honesty and I know the two lawyers in this thread will have issue with the claim and this is meant as no shot at them. The cards are fakes and I don't need to capitalize the word or on the opportunity because they are fakes.

I hear very clearly that you firmly believe and have formed your opinion from the dealer you spoke to who was being honest. For purposes of discussion, let's say he absolutely was being honest. Unless he produced them (which you didn't mention anything about), then it was his opinion they were fakes. Said opinion which he honestly shared with you and you have taken on as yours. Since then some very knowledgeable, respected advanced collectors have handled and carefully examined them. The 2 most respected grading companies have examined them and concluded they are real. It seems to me that the consensus/weight of highly experienced and educated opinions is they are real. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, it is a bit strange to me why you feel the need to argue an unprovable point (after offering your opinion) where your opinion is at best in the minority and at worst a lone outlier opinion.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Greg,

Thank you, but I can't and won't get around the guy's honesty. That was the impression he left which was honesty and I know the two lawyers in this thread will have issue with the claim and this is meant as no shot at them. The cards are fakes and I don't need to capitalize the word or on the opportunity because they are fakes.

It's got nothing to do with being a lawyer to want to even remotely test the credibility of some long-ago dealer; it's just common sense. Does this dealer have a name?

[RCMcKenzie]

I could be persuaded to believe they are repros, but I would want to hear more...for example, "I remember the dealer's name was Larry, and his son was Jeff. Fritz I think it was." They said they made them in the 80's" or something like that.


It would be an odd card series to decide to fake very well in small numbers, with mostly commons.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It's got nothing to do with being a lawyer to want to even remotely test the credibility of some long-ago dealer; it's just common sense. Does this dealer have a name?

Jeffrey,

My apologies. If I could remember the names of every dealer I have dealt with since the 1970s it would be miraculous. Now, for dates and times I am not quite to the same level as the one actress from "TAXI", but......

That said where the guy was from and the person who sold the cards were two different locations. The guy in eBay "as I recall" was from Maryland.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Greg,

Thank you, but I can't and won't get around the guy's honesty. That was the impression he left which was honesty and I know the two lawyers in this thread will have issue with the claim and this is meant as no shot at them. The cards are fakes and I don't need to capitalize the word or on the opportunity because they are fakes.

It’s not just lawyers, Brian, it’s pretty much everyone but you.

It was not my intent to cross-examine you– believe me that would be far more rigorous. But since you alluded to my profession, I would say that I instead approached your posts as I would a client in an initial consultation. Generally, I would ask: “what brings you in today–what is bothering you or has happened that you would like to talk about?” Then “how has this affected you and what would you like done about it”? After which I would tell them that we will go into the facts more thoroughly and I will advise as to their legal options, give my opinion as to possible outcomes, and provide some strategies.

Here I did not ask the initial questions, but I believe they should be asked now. Why did you bring your unsolicited opinion about these cards as they are about to be auctioned? What is motivating your actions? I assume you are intending to discourage bidding, or at least you should know that negative comments about the cards could have that effect. So do you believe you are providing a service to the hobby and/or trying to right a wrong?

No one here is challenging that you were told these cards were not genuine by some unnamed dealer at a card show 20 or so years ago. Many or most here would take the word of the dealer making the statements and pass on buying any, although I would like to think that I would have asked him some questions about them, examined them myself, and maybe paid the very few $$$ he wanted for one or two, just for future use to better understand how they were made. Nonetheless, your decision to walk away was reasonable and no one suggests otherwise, regardless if he had an honest face and truthful-sounding voice.

But you don’t leave it there. You continue to matter of factly call these cards fakes based on nothing more than that single encounter. Over and over you make this conclusive statement. Now with the passing of a couple of decades and the essentially unanimous opinions expressed by numerous collectors and hobbyists that these are real, you just dig in, adding a couple of feeble remarks that the design is weaker and the street address of the advertiser is missing as supporting “evidence”. Again I think it’s fair to ask why?

To circle back to the beginning of my post, if a client explained to me what you have put forth, not only would I tell him he has no case in trying to prove these Herpolsheimers are fakes, I would counsel him that continually broadcasting them as such in a hobby forum days before their auction arguably could be construed as an attempt to interfere with the business transactions of others. It’s one thing to recount your personal, one-time experience of 20 years ago. It’s something different to conclusively and repeatedly call these cards fakes in the face of all that has come to light since. At a minimum it’s reckless, and in all events it does not help the hobby.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

It’s not just lawyers, Brian, it’s pretty much everyone but you.

It was not my intent to cross-examine you– believe me that would be far more rigorous. But since you alluded to my profession, I would say that I instead approached your posts as I would a client in an initial consultation. Generally, I would ask: “what brings you in today–what is bothering you or has happened that you would like to talk about?” Then “how has this affected you and what would you like done about it”? After which I would tell them that we will go into the facts more thoroughly and I will advise as to their legal options, give my opinion as to possible outcomes, and provide some strategies.

Here I did not ask the initial questions, but I believe they should be asked now. Why did you bring your unsolicited opinion about these cards as they are about to be auctioned? What is motivating your actions? I assume you are intending to discourage bidding, or at least you should know that negative comments about the cards could have that effect. So do you believe you are providing a service to the hobby and/or trying to right a wrong?

No one here is challenging that you were told these cards were not genuine by some unnamed dealer at a card show 20 or so years ago. Many or most here would take the word of the dealer making the statements and pass on buying any, although I would like to think that I would have asked him some questions about them, examined them myself, and maybe paid the very few $$$ he wanted for one or two, just for future use to better understand how they were made. Nonetheless, your decision to walk away was reasonable and no one suggests otherwise, regardless if he had an honest face and truthful-sounding voice.

But you don’t leave it there. You continue to matter of factly call these cards fakes based on nothing more than that single encounter. Over and over you make this conclusive statement. Now with the passing of a couple of decades and the essentially unanimous opinions expressed by numerous collectors and hobbyists that these are real, you just dig in, adding a couple of feeble remarks that the design is weaker and the street address of the advertiser is missing as supporting “evidence”. Again I think it’s fair to ask why?

To circle back to the beginning of my post, if a client explained to me what you have put forth, not only would I tell him he has no case in trying to prove these Herpolsheimers are fakes, I would counsel him that continually broadcasting them as such in a hobby forum days before their auction arguably could be construed as an attempt to interfere with the business transactions of others. It’s one thing to recount your personal, one-time experience of 20 years ago. It’s something different to conclusively and repeatedly call these cards fakes in the face of all that has come to light since. At a minimum it’s reckless, and in all events it does not help the hobby.

Todd,

Just like 19 years ago and our communications 18 years ago my answer to your questions in the third paragraph of your response:

The cards are fake. If you want to bid that is your choice.

In 2004 I bid on the Baker for an example of fraudulent.

[calvindog]

Brian, do you know a single other collector besides yourself who believes these cards are fake? I'm curious. And don't include the nameless fella from 25 years ago

[oldjudge]

Whether I agree with Brian or not is unimportant. However, I do admire him for sticking up for what he believes despite the opinion being unpopular. Thanks for giving your view on these cards!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Whether I agree with Brian or not is unimportant. However, I do admire him for sticking up for what he believes despite the opinion being unpopular. Thanks for giving your view on these cards!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Whether I agree with Brian or not is unimportant. However, I do admire him for sticking up for what he believes despite the opinion being unpopular. Thanks for giving your view on these cards!

I wonder if you would feel the same if it was your card being auctioned and bidders were turned away by someone who doesn't just repeat a story that happened to him--which could easily be discounted--but instead repeatedly and conclusively calls your card fake. Since he admitted his intent was to discourage bidding and/or that he knew his remarks would have the effect, I wonder how you would react. As someone alluded earlier, this country has enough people who go about their lives firmly and fervently believing things that are demonstrably false and who are not only unable/unwilling to admit they may be wrong but who propagates their views by doubling down. You can admire that Jay, but personally I don't find it to be a good look, to put it mildly.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I wonder if you would feel the same if it was your card being auctioned and bidders were turned away by someone who doesn't just repeat a story that happened to him--which could easily be discounted--but instead repeatedly and conclusively calls your card fake. Sine he admitted his intent was to discourage bidding and/or that he knew his remarks would have the effect, I wonder how you would react. As someone alluded earlier, this country has enough people who go about their lives firmly and fervently believing things that are demonstrably false and who are not only unable/unwilling to admit they may be wrong but who promulgate their views by doubling down. You can admire that Jay, but personally I don't find it to be a good look, to put it mildly.

Oh, so watching out for others is not a good idea. Put it off as a resolution until next year?

[RCMcKenzie]

Look at the rat bite on this Geo Burns. How or why would a forger institute that? Each card appears to have it's own natural wear.