1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

1. We disagree.
2. The "Herpolsheimer's" brand, not the 1916 one, but the one we have been discussing, is not from 1921, but from a later date. Have an older looking design makes the fakes easier to sell.

Before you said (many times) that you didn't like the 1921 border because it looked like a 1970s design.

Now that someone has shown that the design existed well before 1970, you seem to be saying you don't like them because having "an older looking design makes the fakes easier to sell".

As far as I can tell, your only basis for calling the cards fake is that a dealer in 1999 said they were.

When you mention there is no address on the back, others point out that that is in keeping with earlier Herpolsheimer's cards, printed Herpolsheimer's ads, and other 1921 cards (like Holsum Bread Standard Biscuit).

When you question why no ads were placed in 1921 newspapers for the cards, someone finds an ad.

When you say the borders are from the 1970s, someone finds proof that they are not. Which somehow you use to support that the cards are fake.

Your argument is essentially they are fake because I know they are counterfeit because someone told me they are not real. I do not count "LOL" and "I will not be bidding" as arguments. Nor do I see the relevance of AI being used in the future to counterfeit cards, speculation that the next batch is due in 2034, or the fact that it is possible to counterfeit cards.

I am curious if the dealer from 1999 has looked at every card in your collection. Otherwise, how do you know they are not all fakes?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

Before you said (many times) that you didn't like the 1921 border because it looked like a 1970s design.

Now that someone has shown that the design existed well before 1970, you seem to be saying you don't like them because having "an older looking design makes the fakes easier to sell".

As far as I can tell, your only basis for calling the cards fake is that a dealer in 1999 said they were.

When you mention there is no address on the back, others point out that that is in keeping with earlier Herpolsheimer's cards, printed Herpolsheimer's ads, and other 1921 cards (like Holsum Bread).

When you question why no ads were placed in 1921 newspapers for the cards, someone finds an ad.

When you say the borders are from the 1970s, someone finds proof that they are not. Which somehow you use to support that the cards are fake.

Your argument is essentially they are fake because I know they are counterfeit because someone told me they are not real. I do not count "LOL" and "I will not be bidding" as arguments. Nor do I see the relevance of AI being used in the future to counterfeit cards, speculation that the next batch is due in 2034, or the fact that it is possible to counterfeit cards.

I am curious if the dealer from 1999 has looked at every card in your collection. Otherwise, how do you know they are not all fakes?

Before 1970, but the dealer indicated the cards were made in the 1970's and it still looks like a 1970's disco floor design but keep me in mind some 1970's disco floor designs harked back to the 1930's and 1940's and the link in the previous post placed the design in those years.

"When you mention there is no address on the back, others point out that that is in keeping with earlier Herpolsheimer's cards, printed Herpolsheimer's ads, and other 1921 cards (like Holsum Bread)."

There was only one other Herpolsheimer's set of cards which was the real group from 1916. No address. 1921 Holsum Bread? Please see the attachments. Showing front just so you know who is on the card and back for the address.

"Your argument is essentially they are fake because I know they are counterfeit because someone told me they are not real. I do not count "LOL" and "I will not be bidding" as arguments. Nor do I see the relevance of AI being used in the future to counterfeit cards, speculation that the next batch is due in 2034, or the fact that it is possible to counterfeit cards."

I saw the cards, I discussed with the dealer, I handled the cards and I looked at the back design and he mentioned that they were made in the 1970's. It is incredibly possible to counterfeit cards. Feel free to do a Google search. AI will simply make this a higher tech accomplishment in the future.

"I am curious if the dealer from 1999 has looked at every card in your collection. Otherwise, how do you know they are not all fakes?[/QUOTE]"

LOL with all due respect and Thank you!

[molenick]

My mistake on the Holsum Bread...they do have the address....there are so many sets to keep track of...I meant Standard Biscuit.

Otherwise, we are just back to agree to disagree.

You will not be persuaded the cards are real and everyone else on the board will not be persuaded they are fake, so I guess I will just drop it.

[rhettyeakley]

Seriously, this is starting to feel more and more like an episode of “Punk’d” than a serious discussion of whether the cards are real or fake.

Absent an anecdotal testimony Brian heard 2 decades ago he is full of it and he knows it. He doesn’t have to accept the consensus of this board, but to keep on digging in his heels when everything he had questioned has been debunked is asinine. He doesn’t want to be wrong but… YOU, BRIAN, are wrong and are making a poor showing of yourself here by not being able to accept that fact.

I said I was done with the thread earlier and apologize for even chiming back in but these E121-like cards are kinda special to me and I have dedicated more time to studying them than perhaps anyone else in the world. The idea that someone could conjure up fakes that would fool me or any of the others testifying to their legitimacy is actually rather insulting.


Imagine this scenario…a fake set is made in the 1970’s that was previously unknown to exist…then coincidentally the company that the person decided to fake as the maker of the fraud set DID in fact have an actual promotion distributing baseball cards in the same style, format and year as the “fake” cards(which was unknown to the fraudster) and then several advertisements are found to confirm the promotion (which would have been unknown to the fraudster)… THiS IS INSANELY COINCIDENTAL!!!

Or…The cards are real and Brian is full of Shit!

[G1911]

You can only win with facts and evidence and reason with a person who also accepts those as the grounds of battle and the rules of engagement. You can’t reason with an idiot who rejects them in favor of an appeal to authority to an anonymous dealer’s claim they may even be making up too.

Nobody should change their mind because of the credentials of people who say otherwise or because of peer pressure; they should because their claim is absurdist and illogical and all of the evidence is against it and points to the exact opposite.

This is the stupidest thread in a long time. I love it.

[Brian Van Horn]

Michael,

Thank you for the response.

[Brian Van Horn]

Now, now, now Rhett.

I am still waiting for response to my post to your #218 yesterday. Here is what you stated:

"The weird part about your theory of fake cards Brian is...

the subjects included in the "fake" Herpolsheimer cards line up perfectly with the D350 Standard Biscuit and Holsum Bread (Type 2) set perfectly as VERY early 1921 sets and pre-date the earliest version of the E121 Series 80 set because by the time the E121-80 set was printed many of the "dropped" cards had been eliminated from the lineup.

WHAT MAKES THIS INTERESTING?

This knowledge is only known by me and a handful of other people in the entire world and was known by nobody in the 1970's.

And, when I say they line up perfectly...I mean there are 0 outliers! There is not a single mistake made in the Herpolsheimer's checklist and includes copies of cards that were not known to exist in the "E121 family of sets" in the 1970's...like the Davenport card (which is only included in the sets listed above and 1-2 copies in the world as a W575-1)

With all due respect you are being ridiculous about this subject and you seem to really have a hard time with admitting when you are wrong.

I am done with this conversation at this point and would advise everyone to stop "feeding the troll" as Brian is obviously not looking at anything here objectively and is (I can only imagine at this point) is somehow getting pleasure from his troll behavior."

No errors, but no answer so far to Peckinpaugh/Peckinbaugh in existence in the Herpolsheimer knock off in my response and that is just one example.

Also, here is another one.

Post #240 today which states

Wow, this is an all-time thread. Like others I enjoy printmaking so, FWIW, with a fairly quick search I was able to find both borders available in the 1930s and 40s, so the border in question was definitely available before the 1970s.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

Go to the link and below the images?

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.


Oh, we're just off by the early 1920's (not) to the late 1930's or 1940's. Still, let's go with the lesser number of years and be off by under twenty years. Yeah, that's the ticket. Refund! LOL!

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by G1911

You can only win with facts and evidence and reason with a person who also accepts those as the grounds of battle and the rules of engagement. You can’t reason with an idiot who rejects them in favor of an appeal to authority to an anonymous dealer’s claim they may even be making up too.

Nobody should change their mind because of the credentials of people who say otherwise or because of peer pressure; they should because their claim is absurdist and illogical and all of the evidence is against it and points to the exact opposite.

This is the stupidest thread in a long time. I love it.

Greg,

Well, we have something in common.

[Brian Van Horn]

By the way gentlemen,

I have to give credit where it is deserved. From last Wednesday morning until today I have had a cold. It caused me to back out of not one or two, but three Thanksgiving dinners. I thank you seriously for your responses in this thread for making me recover.

Sincerely,

Brian Van Horn

P.S.

Keep the responses coming. The "1921" Herpolsheimer cards are fakes.

[Rhotchkiss]

The brilliant irony of this terribly annoying thread that won’t die (and I just bumped it) is that the Herpolsheimers (and many LOTG lots) probably went for more because of Brian’s (incorrect) claims, which lead to a runaway thread of publicity and produced what, I think, is previously unknown and lock-solid proof of authenticity. Classic