1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

Brian Van Horn · #1 11-27-2023, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

In the Holsum Bread set the Peckinpaugh card in Type 1 (1920) has him correctly identified as �PeckinPaugh� while the Type 2 (1921) has his name mistakenly listed as � PeckinBaugh�

The mistaken spelled was continued into the next round of production (which included the E121 Series of 80 cards (Type 1) cards

The last round of production of the cards with their various backs included E121-80 Type 2 & 3 backs, Gasslers�s and Koester�s Bread has the comoany RE-correcting the card to �PeckinPaugh�

What exactly do you think you are proving with that?

Rhett,

Please review your previous post, not your response you just made. You stated:

"And, when I say they line up perfectly...I mean there are 0 outliers! There is not a single mistake made in the Herpolsheimer's checklist and includes copies of cards that were not known to exist in the "E121 family of sets" in the 1970's...like the Davenport card (which is only included in the sets listed above and 1-2 copies in the world as a W575-1)"

Well mistake could be interpreted as a mistake in the name or in the nameplate of a player, thus the question involving Peckinpaugh/Peckinbaugh.

Now, as for the link:

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

Just under 20 to 20 years off. Uh, hmmm.

Go to the link and below the images?

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

rhettyeakley · #2 11-27-2023, 09:15 PM

It lines up with the timeline of Peckinpaugh cards perfectly.

Something that would not be done by a fraudster with no knowledge of the sets.

rhettyeakley · #3 11-27-2023, 09:16 PM

Your peckinpaugh blank back lines up with the Koester’s printing at the end of the 1921 season (at the same time as E121 Series of 80 Type 2 & 3, Gassler’s Bread as well) when they had recorrected his name.

Brian Van Horn · #4 11-27-2023, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

It lines up with the timeline of Peckinpaugh cards perfectly.

Something that would not be done by a fraudster with no knowledge of the sets.

OK. Now, for the late 1930's, early 1940's on the back. Still looking forward in about ten years to the Peckinpaugh sample.

My apologies.

molenick · #5 11-27-2023, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

OK. Now, for the late 1930's, early 1940's on the back. Still looking forward in about ten years to the Peckinpaugh sample.

My apologies.

The designs found were from the late 1930's-early 1940's.

That clearly disproves your idea that this was a disco-inspired design from the 1970's as you stated several times:

Post 217 "I also handled the cards with concern about the design which looked like, in my opinion, something influenced by the disco era"
Post 245 "and the one on the back of the "1921" still looks like the design of a disco floor or even some coffee tables from the 1970's"
Post 255 "Well, Cher was big in the 1970's and the design on the back of the "1921" Herpolsheimer's would have fit in well as a floor design for her performances".

It does not disprove the idea the design could have existed in 1921.

The sample book of borders has a design used by Holsum Bread in 1921. That does not mean the Holsum Bread cards are fake.

Let me put it this way. Say I discovered a magazine article from 1940 about airplanes. That would disprove that airplanes originated in the 1970's. But it would not mean airplanes did not exist in 1921.

Brian Van Horn · #6 11-27-2023, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molenick

The designs found were from the late 1930's-early 1940's.

That clearly disproves your idea that this was a disco-inspired design from the 1970's as you stated several times:

Post 217 "I also handled the cards with concern about the design which looked like, in my opinion, something influenced by the disco era"
Post 245 "and the one on the back of the "1921" still looks like the design of a disco floor or even some coffee tables from the 1970's"
Post 255 "Well, Cher was big in the 1970's and the design on the back of the "1921" Herpolsheimer's would have fit in well as a floor design for her performances".

It does not disprove the idea the design could have existed in 1921.

The sample book of borders has a design used by Holsum Bread in 1921. That does not mean the Holsum Bread cards are fake.

Let me put it this way. Say I discovered a magazine article from 1940 about airplanes. That would disprove that airplanes originated in the 1970's. But it would not mean airplanes did not exist in 1921.

Michael,

"It does not disprove the idea the design could have existed in 1921."

The Herpolsheimer cards are not proof the design existed in 1921.

From my post earlier today (#257):

"I saw the cards, I discussed with the dealer, I handled the cards and I looked at the back design and he mentioned that they were made in the 1970's. It is incredibly possible to counterfeit cards. Feel free to do a Google search. AI will simply make this a higher tech accomplishment in the future."

Wow. 1930's, 1940's and 1970's similarities. The Big Band music, however, was by far the better music. Oops! Another discussion but has to be on another board.

Now, let me refresh you on a post (#240 earlier today):

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

My response in post 246 earlier today:

Can I direct your attention to the synopsis in the white of the website below the page you offered in your information?

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

"A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s."

I apologize, but this paragraph eliminates the design.

Ah, revitalized design from the 1930's or 1940's in the 1970's on a 1921 card. Forget the math here. What's under or over 20 years difference? Uh, hum. Cough, cough. They must have planning for a bumper crop with this "set". Man, the aroma.

molenick · #7 11-27-2023, 10:39 PM

I agree that "The Herpolsheimer cards are not proof the design existed in 1921."

I never said it was proof.

I just said that, like the Holsum Bread design found in the same book, the design could have existed in 1921 but could not have originated in the 1970's.

The problem with saying "Ah, revitalized design from the 1930's or 1940's in the 1970's on a 1921 card" is that you are starting by assuming they are 1970's cards (or at least assuming that this particular design was used because it was revitalized in the 1970's). Why would a counterfeiter use a 1970's style design if they were trying to forge a 1921 card?

It still comes down to two things: the dealer said they were from the 1970's and it is possible to counterfeit cards. I am not disputing that these things are true. I (and I think most of us) are just saying the dealer was incorrect.

And if "this paragraph eliminates the design" how did another design from the book get on a 1921 Holsum Bread card?

Brian Van Horn · #8 11-27-2023, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molenick

I agree that "The Herpolsheimer cards are not proof the design existed in 1921."

I never said it was proof.

I just said that, like the Holsum Bread design found in the same book, the design could have existed in 1921 but could not have originated in the 1970's.

The problem with saying "Ah, revitalized design from the 1930's or 1940's in the 1970's on a 1921 card" is that you are starting by assuming they are 1970's cards.

It still comes down to two things: the dealer said they were from the 1970's and it is possible to counterfeit cards. I am not disputing that these things are true. I (and I think most of us) are just saying the dealer was incorrect.

"I never said it was proof.

I just said that, like the Holsum Bread design found in the same book, the design could have existed in 1921 but could not have originated in the 1970s."

My apologies.

"The problem with saying "Ah, revitalized design from the 1930's or 1940's in the 1970's on a 1921 card" is that you are starting by assuming they are 1970's cards."

Please review:

I have stated the dealer in May 1999 told me at the table the cards were printed in the 1970's.

"And if "this paragraph eliminates the design" how did another design from the book get on a 1921 Holsum Bread card."

I've been waiting for this one all day. THANK YOU!!!!
The Holsums have been known for a very long time. The "1921" Herpolsheimer plus a design from either the late 1930's or 1940's plus a dealer at the table in May 1999 waiving his hand over the cards in the case and stating they were printed in the 1970's equals not original. Those three outweigh, but the Holsum design was also the late 1930's or 1940's from reading the link and interpreting.

Summary: The "1921" Herpolsheimer cards are fakes, but will probably have more findings in the future. Wow, the possibilities. I'll leave out the incentives for the possibilities because they are obvious.

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