Thurman Munson Hall of Fame? And other careers cut short.

[JollyElm]

Many/a lot(?) of us were around when Thurm was playing. He was a great catcher, a great leader, and a hard-nosed ballplayer who got things done. He was a huge part of whatever it was that got the Yanks back into prominence, and was beyond clutch in the post-season...yet, once again, when stats are shown, the first one is WAR. WAR is a goddamn theoretical stat. It seems the people who constantly trot it out are those who have never stepped onto a baseball diamond in their life, and base everything on what a computer tells them. I much rather listen to the guys who played with and against Munson to get the measure of him as a player (Here is where some snarky contrarian will jump in to quote a Yankee who had something less than stellar to say about him. Whatever.).

When he was playing (and admittedly statistically declining) he was thought of as a sure fire HOFer. That's important in his case, as he was looked at as one of the best around by both players and fans alike.

End of rant.

[nolemmings]

I can't give an objective opinion. Thurman Munson was my favorite player and meeting him was the highlight of my sportsfan life, short 60 seconds or so as it was.

[Mike D.]

I always find it amusing that people find WAR useful until they disagree with what it says about a borderline Hall of Famer, then it's garbage. Yet nobody looks at the list of top 10 career WAR and says "that list is absurd".

When talking about catchers who's career were "cut short", how about Mauer? He was a very good catcher who had a 135 OPS+. He played until he was 35, but at less valuable position (1B) and had a 105 OPS+.

Mauer was worth 44.6 WAR in his first 10 seasons, before he was forced off catching. He was worth 10.6 WAR in his final 5 seasons (post concussions). It stands to reason he'd have had some aging related loss of performance those last 5 years even if he didn't have the concussion.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Many/a lot(?) of us were around when Thurm was playing. He was a great catcher, a great leader, and a hard-nosed ballplayer who got things done. He was a huge part of whatever it was that got the Yanks back into prominence, and was beyond clutch in the post-season...yet, once again, when stats are shown, the first one is WAR. WAR is a goddamn theoretical stat. It seems the people who constantly trot it out are those who have never stepped onto a baseball diamond in their life, and base everything on what a computer tells them. I much rather listen to the guys who played with and against Munson to get the measure of him as a player (Here is where some snarky contrarian will jump in to quote a Yankee who had something less than stellar to say about him. Whatever.).

When he was playing (and admittedly statistically declining) he was thought of as a sure fire HOFer. That's important in his case, as he was looked at as one of the best around by both players and fans alike.

End of rant.

If we 1) toss out statistical evidence and 2) toss out any opinions other than that he is a Hall of Fame, then Munson is a Hall of Famer. You can arrange any outcome if you refuse to a admit any evidence that is not in accord with what you want to find

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by G1911

If we 1) toss out statistical evidence and 2) toss out any opinions other than that he is a Hall of Fame, then Munson is a Hall of Famer. You can arrange any outcome if you refuse to a admit any evidence that is not in accord with what you want to find

Gee, not exactly a surprise to see you try to take a shot at yet another person here. Yawn. Perhaps, if you actually read what I wrote, you may notice that I didn't give an opinion on whether or not he belongs, I simply stated, "When he was playing (and admittedly statistically declining) he was thought of as a sure fire HOFer. That's important in his case, as he was looked at as one of the best around by both players and fans alike."

[G1911]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Gee, not exactly a surprise to see you try to take a shot at yet another person here. Yawn. Perhaps, if you actually read what I wrote, you may notice that I didn't give an opinion on whether or not he belongs, I simply stated, "When he was playing (and admittedly statistically declining) he was thought of as a sure fire HOFer. That's important in his case, as he was looked at as one of the best around by both players and fans alike."

The shot was at the illogical setup, not the person. I know this board abolsutely hates logic and reason and loves ad hominem and outrage. I do not know you whatsoever. Perhaps if you read what I wrote, you would see the glaring logic issue.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by G1911

The shot was at the illogical setup, not the person. I know this board abolsutely hates logic and reason and loves ad hominem and outrage. I do not know you whatsoever. Perhaps if you read what I wrote, you would see the glaring logic issue.

You are going to talk to me about logic???? Good one. If you want to take shots at "this board," then take shots at it and leave me the eff out of it. Are we done, because I have things to do?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

You are going to talk to me about logic???? Good one. If you want to take shots at "this board," then take shots at it and leave me the eff out of it. Are we done, because I have things to do?

Yes, I pointed out the clear faulty logic in a debate thread. Yes, I can tell you are super busy and have many things to do. You are done whenever you want to be done, I have no control over that.