1st 5 HOF

jacksons · #1 01-01-2024, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Great photo. Caption reads throws at 122 feet per second, that is only 83mph. I think he threw faster than that . Any other sources.

Watch the documentary “Fastball”. All depends on where the ball was being tracked on its path from mound to plate. Later analysis showed Johnson’s 122 fps was captured nearly behind home plate. A more accurate measurement to today’s radar standards was around 95 mph.

Hankphenom · #2 01-02-2024, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksons

Watch the documentary “Fastball”. All depends on where the ball was being tracked on its path from mound to plate. Later analysis showed Johnson’s 122 fps was captured nearly behind home plate. A more accurate measurement to today’s radar standards was around 95 mph.

There was so much wrong with the 1912 attempt to measure his speed, one hardly knows where to begin, and the results totally invalid if not downright laughable. This was done at the Remington Arms Works on a device designed to measure the speed of bullets, so he had to throw the ball overhand (not his stlyle) through a series of hanging wires that registered that position and then when the ball hit the back of the device that also registered and the time it took for the ball to pass between them measured the speed. Presumably, a bullet would only hit one wire on its way to the wall, whereas who knows how many a ball would hit to slow it down before hitting the wall. He was also in street clothes (long sleeve shirt and tie) and had no warmup. For what it's worth, he did measure considerably faster than Nap Rucker, chosen as the fastest in the NL. To my knowledge, Walter's fastball never did get any kind of accurate measurement, but if you know what the batter's said about it you get some idea. First of all, it made a sound as it crossed the plate: Sam Crawford called it a "whoosh" and Cobb described it as a "hiss." I'm not aware of any other pitcher's ball they've said that about. Plenty of players lived long enough to compare Walter to other speedballers they saw through Nolan Ryan: I challenge you to find me one who said that any other pitcher was faster. Want my honest opinion? He threw 100 whenever he wanted to, and when he reached back for that little something extra, he'd have popped 103-105 on a gun. Look at his record, and realize he never had a great outpitch like all the other great pitchers throughout baseball history--every one of them. WaJo's arm was special, like the Babe was special at hitting the ball. It's right there in the record books.

jacksons · #3 01-02-2024, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

There was so much wrong with the 1912 attempt to measure his speed, one hardly knows where to begin, and the results totally invalid if not downright laughable. This was done at the Remington Arms Works on a device designed to measure the speed of bullets, so he had to throw the ball overhand (not his stlyle) through a series of hanging wires that registered that position and then when the ball hit the back of the device that also registered and the time it took for the ball to pass between them measured the speed. Presumably, a bullet would only hit one wire on its way to the wall, whereas who knows how many a ball would hit to slow it down before hitting the wall. He was also in street clothes (long sleeve shirt and tie) and had no warmup. For what it's worth, he did measure considerably faster than Nap Rucker, chosen as the fastest in the NL. To my knowledge, Walter's fastball never did get any kind of accurate measurement, but if you know what the batter's said about it you get some idea. First of all, it made a sound as it crossed the plate: Sam Crawford called it a "whoosh" and Cobb described it as a "hiss." I'm not aware of any other pitcher's ball they've said that about. Plenty of players lived long enough to compare Walter to other speedballers they saw through Nolan Ryan: I challenge you to find me one who said that any other pitcher was faster. Want my honest opinion? He threw 100 whenever he wanted to, and when he reached back for that little something extra, he'd have popped 103-105 on a gun. Look at his record, and realize he never had a great outpitch like all the other great pitchers throughout baseball history--every one of them. WaJo's arm was special, like the Babe was special at hitting the ball. It's right there in the record books.

It’s a fun debate for sure. I would be shocked though if deadball hurlers topped 100mph, and I don’t think they even needed to. 95 was fast enough against those bats of the time. Johnson’s delivery and arm slot may have helped his velocity but his locked left leg on plant probably didn’t. Either way he was likely the fastest of his era.

BabyRuth · #4 01-02-2024, 05:11 PM

my 5

Rhotchkiss · #5 01-02-2024, 05:14 PM

Some great cards/items. Here is another first-5 pack. Unfortunately, my Wajo collection is not very deep, two Ramlys and the balance in sets that I don’t feel like going through.

Keep’em coming

And Hi Jack!! Happy new year! I just realized you started this great thread

Hankphenom · #6 01-02-2024, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksons

It�s a fun debate for sure. I would be shocked though if deadball hurlers topped 100mph, and I don�t think they even needed to. 95 was fast enough against those bats of the time. Johnson�s delivery and arm slot may have helped his velocity but his locked left leg on plant probably didn�t. Either way he was likely the fastest of his era.

It is fun to discuss, for sure, and especially for me. Walter held the strikeout record for 63 years, through so many great pitchers, and as I said, he didn't have an outpitch. This against "Punch and Judy"-type hitters for most of his career, only a few years in the free-swinging home run era ushered in by the Babe. If you apply the percentage of batter K's today to his time, he ends up with something like 7,000. Again, no curve, no slider, no forkball, not much of a changeup. Fastballs, just fastballs, one after the other. They all said you knew what was coming and you knew where it was going to be because his control was so good, and you still couldn't hit it. Imagine if he had been with the Red Sox, Athletics, or any of a number of other good teams of his time instead of the lowly Senators. The mind boggles.

sb1 · #7 01-02-2024, 06:03 PM

No longer having the Wagner and never collecting much of Ruth I am light, but I will add a few of mine. Had to use a Rogers Peet Catalog with Ruth on the cover(only one known).

Casey2296 · #8 01-02-2024, 06:37 PM

Wrong post
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Hankphenom · #9 01-02-2024, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sb1

No longer having the Wagner and never collecting much of Ruth I am light, but I will add a few of mine. Had to use a Rogers Peet Catalog with Ruth on the cover(only one known).

OMG, your Ramly WaJo is off the charts!

Rhotchkiss · #10 01-02-2024, 07:39 PM

Wow Scott. That�s an incredible grouping. Those two w600 are bucket list items!

Ben Yourg · #11 01-06-2024, 07:13 AM

First "Ruth"

nebboy · #12 01-06-2024, 12:31 PM

Original 5 group

benchod · #13 01-07-2024, 05:36 PM

Late to the party
Lots of great eye candy in this thread , keeps me coming back to ogle

Lots of different options to show the first 5
Here they are with their early teams

1896 Paterson Silk Weavers Wagner
1907 Fisher Kline Cobb
1908 Santa Ana Johnson
1903 Falk Postcard Mathewson
1915 Red Sox RPPC Ruth