Probstein video about trimmed cards

Snowman · #1 01-12-2024, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To put some legal context on this, selling an item in interstate commerce knowing a material fact has been misrepresented or omitted certainly can be mail fraud and/or wire fraud. Travis' point, essentially, is that we have reached the point where the fact that a slabbed card is trimmed is no longer material. Incredibly, and sadly, he may be right. The flip is the commodity and the slab sanitizes.

Yes, precisely. The market doesn't care whether or not a card is trimmed. The market only cares whether or not a card is labeled as trimmed by a TPG.

And to take that a step further, a raw card's value is determined by its ability to pass through grading, or more specifically, by whether or not it bears evidence of having been trimmed, not by whether or not it actually has been.

Billy Bob can sell you a raw card at a steep discount because he believes it has been trimmed. After all, the person he bought it from told him so. Billy Bob keeps good notes and he cares about his integrity. He goes to church on Sundays AND Wednesdays. But if you resell that card, you have no obligation whatsoever to pass that information along after having it graded by a TPG. Billy Bob's opinion is irrelevant. The market doesn't care what he thinks.

Also, if you think the card is less valuable because you sold it below comps after you attached a note to it that read "the guy I bought this from told me it was trimmed", despite the PSA 9 label suggesting otherwise, you'd be wrong. All you did was sell the buyer a full value PSA 9 card at a discount, effectively handing him free money by shooting yourself in the foot. You might reason that your integrity is on the line. Others might argue that it's just your ignorance on display and that you're virtue signaling and paying off someone else so you can feel better about yourself. Again, the market doesn't care. The market is a cold beast.

G1911 · #2 01-12-2024, 07:03 PM

Let's say we have 2 copies of the same card in the same condition, except that 1 is trimmed and 1 is not. They are sold honestly; with the small trimmed strip included alongside the rest of the card. We all know which one is worth more and will sell for more.

A trimmed card is only as valuable as an untrimmed card if a grading company doesn't catch it or corruptly grades it anyway and there is a perception that the card is unaltered or many people will believe it to be and thus can be suckered into paying more for it when the owner flips it.

If I make a fake diamond and sneak my fake past an expert, it's still a fake that is worth less and I commit fraud if I sell it as original, because that is a material fact I am hiding to deceive a buyer and make more money. We don't say it is not fraud because the fraud was successful and an alleged expert was tricked. I can't think of an example where the success of a fraud scheme makes it not fraud. Tricking a corporation, or their complicity in the scheme, does not make something not fraud.

I understand we have a great number of hobbyists that love fraud (at least when committed by themselves or the people they like), but this makes no sense at all.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 01-12-2024, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Let's say we have 2 copies of the same card in the same condition, except that 1 is trimmed and 1 is not. They are sold honestly; with the small trimmed strip included alongside the rest of the card. We all know which one is worth more and will sell for more.

A trimmed card is only as valuable as an untrimmed card if a grading company doesn't catch it or corruptly grades it anyway and there is a perception that the card is unaltered or many people will believe it to be and thus can be suckered into paying more for it when the owner flips it.

If I make a fake diamond and sneak my fake past an expert, it's still a fake that is worth less and I commit fraud if I sell it as original, because that is a material fact I am hiding to deceive a buyer and make more money. We don't say it is not fraud because the fraud was successful and an alleged expert was tricked. I can't think of an example where the success of a fraud scheme makes it not fraud. Tricking a corporation, or their complicity in the scheme, does not make something not fraud.

I understand we have a great number of hobbyists that love fraud (at least when committed by themselves or the people they like), but this makes no sense at all.

But suppose people don't care if it's fake, only what it looks like? Is it still material? Don't fight the hypothetical, assume my facts. Isn't that the analogy here at least to how many collectors now think? I would bet my life you could prove to many set registrants they had fake cards (altered anyhow) and they would not get rid of them, but would keep them because what matters to them is the registry ranking.

G1911 · #4 01-12-2024, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But suppose people don't care if it's fake, only what it looks like? Is it still material? Don't fight the hypothetical, assume my facts. Isn't that the analogy here at least to how many collectors now think? I would bet my life you could prove to many set registrants they had fake cards and they would not get rid of them, but would keep them because what matters to them is the registry ranking.

This is why I started at the beginning and used the example of an honestly listed card and the same card but untrimmed, both posted honestly and fully. Do we seriously dispute that the untrimmed one will sell for more and he seems a more valuable? No? Then we know the untrimmed example is worth more and we know exactly why nobody trimming cards is selling these cards as trimmed.

If the situation was completely different, then the conclusions would be completely different.

They only have the same value, as I said, if a company that people have outsourced their thinking too says it does because they are certifying it isn�t altered and is in Mint or Near Mint or whatever grade above an authentic altered that you�d like for the example. That is, if there is corruption or the grader is tricked. Again, I cannot think of an example where an alteration deceiving an authenticator or expert makes it no longer fraud.

The registry collector may be fine with it - because and only because their circle and buyer market also outsources their thinking to this corporation that has certified the card is just fine and believe the false certification. .

Successfully getting a dishonest item by an expert does not mean that it is not fraud. If succeeding in the crime for some time before someone catches it is grounds for it not bringing a crime, we better go open the floodgates. I�m not seeing any logical way this isn�t fraud as neither justifications makes any sense.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 01-12-2024, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

This is why I started at the beginning and used the example of an honestly listed card and the same card but untrimmed, both posted honestly and fully. Do we seriously dispute that the untrimmed one will sell for more and he seems a more valuable? No? Then we know the untrimmed example is worth more and we know exactly why nobody trimming cards is selling these cards as trimmed.

If the situation was completely different, then the conclusions would be completely different.

They only have the same value, as I said, if a company that people have outsourced their thinking too says it does because they are certifying it isn’t altered and is in Mint or Near Mint or whatever grade above an authentic altered that you’d like for the example. That is, if there is corruption or the grader is tricked. Again, I cannot think of an example where an alteration deceiving an authenticator or expert makes it no longer fraud.

The registry collector may be fine with it - because and only because their circle and buyer market also outsources their thinking to this corporation that has certified the card is just fine and believe the false certification. As to some of your prose, I am not sure authenticators are being tricked. I think they are, at least often, knowingly grading trimmed cards if they look OK, and giving the benefit of every doubt in any event.

Successfully getting a dishonest item by an expert does not mean that it is not fraud. If succeeding in the crime for some time before someone catches it is grounds for it not bringing a crime, we better go open the floodgates. I’m not seeing any logical way this isn’t fraud as neither justifications makes any sense.

Obviously I have believed as you do for all my time in the hobby. What I am seeing makes me now question it. What is anathema to me (trimming) seems a matter of indifference to much of the current hobby. And if that's so, we have to rewrite definitions of what fraud means in a hobby context. And who says authenticators are being tricked? What if they're complicit too, as I believe they are. My belilef is they made a deal with the devil long ago because high grade cards generate excitement, interest, and big bucks.

G1911 · #6 01-12-2024, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Obviously I have believed as you do for all my time in the hobby. What I am seeing makes me now question it. What is anathema to me (trimming) seems a matter of indifference to much of the current hobby. And if that's so, we have to rewrite definitions of what fraud means in a hobby context. And who says authenticators are being tricked? What if they're complicit too, as I believe they are. My belilef is they made a deal with the devil long ago because high grade cards generate excitement, interest, and big bucks.

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I�m sorry but that�s just obviously not true. There�s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company�s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

JollyElm · #7 01-12-2024, 08:58 PM

I don't think it's too far out there to suggest that at some point the grading companies are going to start purposely giving number grades to obviously trimmed cards (instead of pretending they're not aware of it), perhaps with a 'TR' qualifier or just the words "Evidence of Trimming" noted right on the label beneath the number grade. Seems like the logical next step for them.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 01-12-2024, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I’m sorry but that’s just obviously not true. There’s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company’s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

A buyer who does not care about a fact cannot be defrauded by misrepresenting or omitting that fact. Materiality is an element of fraud. Does it lead to absurd results in the context of this absurd hobby? Yes for sure.

Snowman · #9 01-12-2024, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I�m sorry but that�s just obviously not true. There�s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company�s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

You keep referring to cards "presented honestly", as if that's even relevant to its market value. A card's true history is unknown and unknowable to the market. This romantic idea that a historical record of everything that has happened to a card in the past somehow can (or should) follow it throughout it's life is nothing more than wishful thinking.

I could easily find you two copies of the same card in similar condition, one which has been trimmed and the other which has not, where the trimmed copy would pass grading nearly every time and the untrimmed copy would get rejected nearly every time. In this circumstance, the market dictates that the trimmed card is worth more than the untrimmed card. The market determines card values. Not you.

Snowman · #10 01-12-2024, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Let's say we have 2 copies of the same card in the same condition, except that 1 is trimmed and 1 is not. They are sold honestly; with the small trimmed strip included alongside the rest of the card. We all know which one is worth more and will sell for more.

A trimmed card is only as valuable as an untrimmed card if a grading company doesn't catch it or corruptly grades it anyway and there is a perception that the card is unaltered or many people will believe it to be and thus can be suckered into paying more for it when the owner flips it.

You're still overlooking the most important aspect though. Is the trimmed card identifiable as such? Does it bear evidence of trimming? The card itself. Not some piece of paper shaving sitting next to it, not some eyewitness account of someone claiming they saw it happen, not even a signed confession. The only thing that matters with respect to the market value of the card is whether or not it presents as trimmed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

If I make a fake diamond and sneak my fake past an expert, it's still a fake that is worth less and I commit fraud if I sell it as original, because that is a material fact I am hiding to deceive a buyer and make more money. We don't say it is not fraud because the fraud was successful and an alleged expert was tricked. I can't think of an example where the success of a fraud scheme makes it not fraud. Tricking a corporation, or their complicity in the scheme, does not make something not fraud.

This isn't even remotely analogous to the topic of trimmed cards. There is a world of difference between a trimmed card and a counterfeit card.

G1911 · #11 01-12-2024, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

You're still overlooking the most important aspect though. Is the trimmed card identifiable as such? Does it bear evidence of trimming? The card itself. Not some piece of paper shaving sitting next to it, not some eyewitness account of someone claiming they saw it happen, not even a signed confession. The only thing that matters with respect to the market value of the card is whether or not it presents as trimmed.

This isn't even remotely analogous to the topic of trimmed cards. There is a world of difference between a trimmed card and a counterfeit card.

Your long stated position that if PSA lets it by the card doesn�t bear evidence of trimming and thus it isn�t trimmed ins by meaningful sense because they missed it sophistry of the first order. You just go with whatever setup excuses fraud.

The analogy is a material fact being dishonestly presented. Change it to any exact setup you would like.

Snowman · #12 01-12-2024, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Your long stated position that if PSA lets it by the card doesn’t bear evidence of trimming and thus it isn’t trimmed ins by meaningful sense because they missed it sophistry of the first order. You just go with whatever setup excuses fraud.

The analogy is a material fact being dishonestly presented. Change it to any exact setup you would like.

You still don't get it. PSA makes no such claim about whether a card has indeed been trimmed or not. They only make claims about whether or not a card bears evidence of trimming. You do understand the difference, right?

G1911 · #13 01-12-2024, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

You still don't get it. PSA makes no such claim about whether a card has indeed been trimmed or not. They only make claims about whether or not a card bears evidence of trimming. You do understand the difference, right?

They grade trimmed cards as altered. The number grade means they don�t believe it to be trimmed, allegedly. They sell an opinion, NOTHING WHATSOEVER do they say is 100% true or false, for ass covering reasons. That they get fooled or are complicit does not make it not fraud.

perezfan · #14 01-13-2024, 01:39 AM

This headache-inducing thread has made me thankful that I shifted my focus towards memorabilia. Still love vintage cards, but the 3rd Party Opinion Givers have ruined it for me. That, and peoples' unwavering allegiance to the flip instead of the card itself.

A blatantly altered card (trimmed with nefarious intentions, to quintuple its price) is ushered through with a high number grade, while a completely original card that spent some time in a screw-down holder receives a grade of "A".

What's wrong with this picture?

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