Probstein video about trimmed cards

Peter_Spaeth · #1 01-12-2024, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I’m sorry but that’s just obviously not true. There’s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company’s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

A buyer who does not care about a fact cannot be defrauded by misrepresenting or omitting that fact. Materiality is an element of fraud. Does it lead to absurd results in the context of this absurd hobby? Yes for sure.

G1911 · #2 01-12-2024, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A buyer who does not care about a fact cannot be defrauded by misrepresenting or omitting that fact. Materiality is an element of fraud. Does it lead to absurd results in the context of this absurd hobby? Yes for sure.

Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.

bnorth · #3 01-12-2024, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.

The one big problem I see with your argument is who is so gullible they think a vintage high grade card hasn't had work done to it? One of my favorite high grade T206 Red Cobbs has so small of borders Stevie Wonder could see it has severely trimmed borders. If it come up for sale it would bring silly money. Everyone knows and maybe 3 people care and weirdly 2 of them collect mainly PSA cards in high grade.

Nothing in this hobby makes sense. I used to care but after it caused me a LOT of problems I now just laugh and say nice card(s).

G1911 · #4 01-12-2024, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

The one big problem I see with your argument is who is so gullible they think a vintage high grade card hasn't had work done to it? One of my favorite high grade T206 Red Cobbs has so small of borders Stevie Wonder could see it has severely trimmed borders. If it come up for sale it would bring silly money. Everyone knows and maybe 3 people care and weirdly 2 of them collect mainly PSA cards in high grade.

Nothing in this hobby makes sense. I used to care but after it caused me a LOT of problems I now just laugh and say nice card(s).

That it should be obvious it is a racket is not a reason it is not fraud. It�s incredibly obvious that the Nigerian prince in my inbox isn�t a Nigerian prince and is going to defraud me. That it�s not a clever scam doesn�t mean it�s not a scam and the fraudster has not committed fraud if I pay him.

I often think that hobbyists can�t be this gullible, illogical and dumb. That thought still hasn�t rectified the situation

Peter_Spaeth · #5 01-12-2024, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.

I am not talking about raw cards. Slabbed. Shocking though it is, I observe that people don't care. Card gets outed, registry set owner doesn't care because they have the flip in their registry. I flip your last sentence back at you.

Pun intended.

Or guy needs a PSA 9 for his registry. He'll pay the same for a PSA 9 even if you tell him it's trimmed. The flip is what he wants.

G1911 · #6 01-12-2024, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not talking about raw cards. Slabbed. Shocking though it is, I observe that people don't care. Card gets outed, registry set owner doesn't care because they have the flip in their registry. I flip your last sentence back at you.

Again, I have addressed this from my first very post here. See previous statement. That people believe the Authenticator that signs off on a lie or is complicit in a conspiracy, does not make it not fraud. That would be utterly nonsensical. Getting away with fraud past an expert does not absolve the crime in any other case that I can think of.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 01-12-2024, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, I have addressed this from my first very post here. See previous statement. That people believe the Authenticator that signs off on a lie or is complicit in a conspiracy, does not make it not fraud. That would be utterly nonsensical. Getting away with fraud past an expert does not absolve the crime in any other case that I can think of.

And I addressed your point. I said this hobby generates absurd things, and this is one of them. It is nonsensical. But it's true. What's hard for you is what's hard for me -- that people ACTUALLY don't care. I think you're not really getting your head around that, and you're just arguing from a flawed premise, namely that people do care. If they do care, all your argument are perfectly logical. But we're not in a logical world any more. All cats have four paws. Rover has four paws. Therefore, Rover is a cat. That's the hobby.

G1911 · #8 01-12-2024, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And I addressed your point. I said this hobby generates absurd things, and this is one of them. It is nonsensical. But it's true. What's hard for you is what's hard for me -- that people ACTUALLY don't care.

Go through the premises. I can only say it so many different ways. When honestly presented raw, the trimmed card is worth far less. We thus know trimming is material.

That the fraudster gets it by an expert and people then subsequently take the experts word does not make it not fraud. Very obviously.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 01-12-2024, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Go through the premises. I can only say it so many different ways. When honestly presented raw, the trimmed card is worth far less. We thus know trimming is material.

That the fraudster gets it by an expert and people then subsequently take the experts word does not make it not fraud. Very obviously.

No. I accept your premise even if Travis does not. But slabbing changes everything. Yes, it does make it not fraud, because once slabbed, the perception of value from slab and flip negates the prior fraud.

Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 01-12-2024, 10:16 PM

This is not to say I condone trimming or defend card doctors and their enablers, my views on that have not changed one iota. I am just making an empirical observation about the state of the hobby, and explaining how that fits into the logical framework of how criminal law does or does not apply.

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