Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljQpthFixws

[Neal]

#AsLongAsIt'sSlabbed

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[G1911]

Am I missing something or did he just soak it and rub glue residue off?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Neal

#AsLongAsIt'sSlabbed

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I like that!

Honestly, I was good with the cleaning part (just wiping off the card) but then cringed when I saw the soaking, but then I thought about it and nothing was added (for example color) or subtracted (trimmed) from the overall card. It was just cleaned.

If someone wants to see the N54 people grab their pitchforks and meet in the town square, then show a video of some butt head trimming a card and showing it regraded as a 7 or 8.

Just curious, what's the price difference between a PSA2 and SGC4 for that card? I bet it's quite a bit. Crack, clean, submit, and sell for more! What happens is the total population for the graded cards increases unless the PSA2 was de-registered (which it probably wasn't)


#AsLongAsIt'sSlabbed

[perezfan]

Not my thing, but I think it's a proprietary solution he's peddling, and not just water that the cards soak in. That said, I bet SGC loves this video getting out there.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Not my thing, but I think it's a proprietary solution he's peddling, and not just water that the cards soak in. That said, I bet SGC loves this video getting out there.

That was my thought, if it's water, no problem. If not, then it could be...

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Not my thing, but I think it's a proprietary solution he's peddling, and not just water that the cards soak in. That said, I bet SGC loves this video getting out there.

It ain't water.
https://www.kurtscardcare.com/

[irv]

Are glues that were used during that era not water soluble glues, or at least some of them?

[4815162342]

Watch the ‘86 Fleer Jordan video…


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[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by irv

Are glues that were used during that era not water soluble glues, or at least some of them?

definitely a mix of water soluble and not.

[tlhss]

I'm not a graded card guy (I'm too cheap), but I did find this interesting.

Title of video: "Honus Wagner 1911 - Restoration and Re-Grade"

Grading terms and condition on SGC website: "7. Customer agrees not to knowingly submit cards to SGC that bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity, as determined in the sole judgment of SGC (“Altered Cards”)."

It seems that Kurt is in violation of SGC Terms and Conditions, and actually made it very public

I'm not debating what folks do with their cards. I just found the wording interesting.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by tlhss

I'm not a graded card guy (I'm too cheap), but I did find this interesting.

Title of video: "Honus Wagner 1911 - Restoration and Re-Grade"

Grading terms and condition on SGC website: "7. Customer agrees not to knowingly submit cards to SGC that bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity, as determined in the sole judgment of SGC (“Altered Cards”)."

It seems that Kurt is in violation of SGC Terms and Conditions, and actually made it very public

I'm not debating what folks do with their cards. I just found the wording interesting.

This is not restoration. It is removal. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with what Kurt did to this card. All he did was effectively wipe off some boogers that the original submitter should have removed prior to sending it to PSA.

You could send this video to SGC and they arent' going to care one bit.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is not restoration. It is removal. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with what Kurt did to this card. All he did was effectively wipe off some boogers that the original submitter should have removed prior to sending it to PSA.

You could send this video to SGC and they arent' going to care one bit.

He did just a tad more than wipe off boogers with the ‘86 Fleer Jordan.

https://youtu.be/LWuaizTLJfQ?si=rKY6WLGzavbpIQhy


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[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Snowman

...there is absolutely nothing wrong with what Kurt did to this card...

It's not surprising to see you write this.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Eric72

It's not surprising to see you write this.

And it's not surprising to see a bunch of boomers in here screaming at clouds again. Like it or not, cleaning a baseball card is not a crime, and it's also allowed by every single TPG. The majority of vintage cards that have any sort of eye appeal at all have been cleaned. If you aren't OK with that, then you should just sell your collection right now, because nobody else cares. In fact most collectors would prefer them cleaned.

[bmattioli]

Comics are cleaned and pressed all the time..

[vintagerookies51]

Yeah, not sure if we’re supposed to be upset about this? As far as I’m concerned, it’s removing stuff that got there after the card was made, making it even closer to its original authentic state. Cool stuff

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Snowman

And it's not surprising to see a bunch of boomers in here screaming at clouds again. Like it or not, cleaning a baseball card is not a crime, and it's also allowed by every single TPG. The majority of vintage cards that have any sort of eye appeal at all have been cleaned. If you aren't OK with that, then you should just sell your collection right now, because nobody else cares. In fact most collectors would prefer them cleaned.

1. I'm not a boomer, though there are some on here.
2. I'm not screaming at anything, so I'm not sure to whom you were referring.
3. Yes, I'm aware cleaning a card is not criminal behavior.
4. I doubt "every single TPG" allows cleaning. They're not always able to detect it, though.
5. How would you know what the majority of vintage cards have been through?
6. I'm not selling anything just because of something written by a snowman on a message board
7. I doubt most collectors of vintage material would prefer their cards cleaned. Someone should start a poll on here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'd like to know what is in these allegedly natural proprietary solutions this dude is using and selling. And no, I don't want cards cleaned in them, but realistically it's probably hard to detect unless something like bleach or the equivalent is used to create an artificially bright appearance.

The prevailing ethos may well be moving towards the comics model where a lot of things are acceptable.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Snowman

...and it's also allowed by every single TPG...

The opinion sellers allow anything as long as they get paid.

[campyfan39]

Once grading got involved in was inevitable.
We will see lots of people able to get out major creases, ink etc. and nobody ever know. I don't necessarily have a problem with it. That's probably because I don't have cards graded.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'd like to know what is in these allegedly natural proprietary solutions this dude is using and selling. And no, I don't want cards cleaned in them, but realistically it's probably hard to detect unless something like bleach or the equivalent is used to create an artificially bright appearance.

The prevailing ethos may well be moving towards the comics model where a lot of things are acceptable.

[G1911]

Kurts has done far more than this. I've seen their crease/dent/corner fixes on the Discords. I get that we want to separate water from chemicals but what, half this board has done basically the same thing that's in this particular video?

Obviously it is not a crime to alter a card and nobody thinks it is - selling it while covering that up and not disclosing the truth can be.

Of course, this problem all goes away if people just stop playing the game. At least half the people on the anti-alteration side seem to collect and pay premiums for PSA, SGC, et al. As long as we have incompetent graders founded on the myth of an altered card, and most people paying far more money for a made up higher number on their slab than a similarly made up lower one, this is the inevitable result. If folks stopped playing this stupid game, there wouldn't be so many stupid prizes. The game will continue as long as the vast majority are playing this game when they vote with their wallets, if not the mouth.

I am more bothered by the grading companies completely lying about the grade to juice a card (see the last BN Ruth, the 9.5 Mantle, that recent T206 Wagner, etc.) or changing grades for certain submitters and former employees than I am that they cannot tell what is altered and don't put much value on improving that situation.

And that's why I have stacks of raw cards with creases and stains and boogers laying around my desk. If someone has removed a crease, they got nothing out of doing it and it doesn't affect me any.

[jchcollins]

I can understand those on the side of concluding that Kurt is altering cards, but in reality the "spray" (his other product, the polish - is not for vintage cards) is quick evaporating, and doesn't leave anything detectable on the cards. It just doesn't.

I bought some last year just out of morbid curiosity; not because I was interested in starting a card doctoring business. The spray is described as a "lubricant" by Kurt, and he claims it's all natural. Beyond that of course, he won't say what it is. It's not water, but it also doesn't smell overly chemical. I had moderate success with removing wrinkles (on lower grade vintage common cards in my PC), and more with things like making crunched corners sharp again - and in the end decided that while novel and certainly interesting, a future in using Kurt's products - even if only on my own cards - wasn't for me.

Just my two cents - but Kurt's methods are a sideshow right now, and very much a moot point when you have the top grading companies that cannot detect real alteration - trimming and other more heinous type things in many cases on expensive vintage cards. If the Gary Mosers of the world can get much worse stuff by PSA, then going after someone like Kurt - yes even if you consider it alteration - is going to be a huge waste of time. Another of his recommended tricks which involves putting a card in a humidor really does only use water - and under the right conditions - I would imagine a dent or wrinkle could also be removed from a card with humidity by accident in an attic or something. I don't see how anyone could claim that is alteration - although it's yet to be seen on a lot of those I think if the problem would somehow later "come back." But hey, some 1974 Kellogg's cards in PSA 10 slabs get exposed to temperature and humidity and wind up cracking later in the slab. They're still PSA 10's, right?

This debate will go on, but I would agree that current sentiment in the hobby may see things like some forms of out-of-the-closet restoration become acceptable. Again, I totally agree with the right of those who think it's wrong to hold their own opinions. As with many other things however, sometimes you can't do anything about it.

[ejharrington]

Water is a chemical. I don't see how dropping a piece of cardboard in water doesn't alter the chemistry of the card. Looking at the before and after photos of the front of the card, the after photo is less vibrant, higher grade notwithstanding.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You could send this video to SGC and they arent' going to care one bit.

Yep. They already know about it. I'd be floored if they somehow didn't. Their answer is going to be if there is not evidence of alteration when inspected for grading - then a card is not altered.

As was also pointed out, SGC and others have in the fine print that you can't "knowingly" submit altered cards, but clearly it's never been a policy to police this. How would that remotely be in their interests? On the assumption that many people unknowingly submit altered cards, they have a wide range of services to accommodate that, which includes still getting your card slabbed with a nice explanation of what you didn't know (wink wink) when you subbed it on the flip.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I can understand those on the side of concluding that Kurt is altering cards, but in reality the "spray" (his other product, the polish - is not for vintage cards) is quick evaporating, and doesn't leave anything detectable on the cards. It just doesn't.

I bought some last year just out of morbid curiosity; not because I was interested in starting a card doctoring business. The spray is described as a "lubricant" by Kurt, and he claims it's all natural. Beyond that of course, he won't say what it is. It's not water, but it also doesn't smell overly chemical. I had moderate success with removing wrinkles (on lower grade vintage common cards in my PC), and more with things like making crunched corners sharp again - and in the end decided that while novel and certainly interesting, a future in using Kurt's products - even if only on my own cards - wasn't for me.

Just my two cents - but Kurt's methods are a sideshow right now, and very much a moot point when you have the top grading companies that cannot detect real alteration - trimming and other more heinous type things in many cases on expensive vintage cards. If the Gary Mosers of the world can get much worse stuff by PSA, then going after someone like Kurt - yes even if you consider it alteration - is going to be a huge waste of time. Another of his recommended tricks which involves putting a card in a humidor really does only use water - and under the right conditions - I would imagine a dent or wrinkle could also be removed from a card with humidity by accident in an attic or something. I don't see how anyone could claim that is alteration - although it's yet to be seen on a lot of those I think if the problem would somehow later "come back." But hey, some Kellogg's cards in PSA 10 slabs get exposed to temperature and humidity and wind up cracking later in the slab. They're still PSA 10's, right?

This debate will go on, but I would agree that current sentiment in the hobby may see things like some forms of out-of-the-closet restoration become acceptable. Again, I totally agree with the right of those who think it's wrong to hold their own opinions. As with many other things however, sometimes you can't do anything about it.

No one is going after the trimmers of the world either. Just buying their cards. Or taking them on consignment. They won. Long live the flip.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No one is going after the trimmers of the world either. Just buying their cards. Or taking them on consignment. They won. Long live the flip.

I just meant going after them here. I respect the main board opinions, lol.


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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Water is a chemical. I don't see how dropping a piece of cardboard in water doesn't alter the chemistry of the card. Looking at the before and after photos of the front of the card, the after photo is less vibrant, higher grade notwithstanding.

You can't look at two pictures of a card taken at different times with different settings on different equipment and determine anything about changes in color.

Kurt's card spray doesn't affect the color of a card at all (it's mostly distilled water). Neither does dihydrogen monoxide.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that soaking a card in water "alters the chemistry of the card", and neither do you.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I have no idea what you mean when you say that soaking a card in water "alters the chemistry of the card", and neither do you.

Soaking a card in water changes the moisture content.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is not restoration. It is removal. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with what Kurt did to this card. All he did was effectively wipe off some boogers that the original submitter should have removed prior to sending it to PSA.

You could send this video to SGC and they arent' going to care one bit.

Go look at his videos.
Removing gunk is ok, not sure just what his formula is, but I'd be concerned about how it affects things long term.

But the fixing creases, corner dings edge dents... no, that's not ok.
One pic on his site shows a 74 Topps with at least one entirely rebuilt corner.

[Pat R]

To each his own. Personally I don't have a problem with someone removing something that wasn't on a card when it was printed. I do find some of the after grades questionable though.

Does anyone want to take a guess on the before and after grades on this one?

Dahlen Sov 350.jpg

Dahlen Sov 350 back.jpg

[GasHouseGang]

One question. What was it soaked in? Water or some "miracle" cleanser? I have a feeling your going to tell us it went from a 2 to a 1.5 since it now has paper loss on the back.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by steve B

Go look at his videos.
But the fixing creases, corner dings edge dents... no, that's not ok.
One pic on his site shows a 74 Topps with at least one entirely rebuilt corner.

Not totally disagreeing with you, but what if that stuff can be made to disappear and there is no chemical residue or detectable signs of alteration on the card?

Rebuilt corner, maybe - but how? Not for profit or anything other than purposes of my own experimentation, but I have gotten a crunched corner back to NM appearing state on a junk era card before using nothing more than his spray and a few minutes time. By “rebuilt corner” I’m thinking many are envisioning razors and glue and donor cardboard. That’s not at all what Kurt does or teaches.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You can't look at two pictures of a card taken at different times with different settings on different equipment and determine anything about changes in color.

Kurt's card spray doesn't affect the color of a card at all (it's mostly distilled water). Neither does dihydrogen monoxide.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that soaking a card in water "alters the chemistry of the card", and neither do you.

Do you use his products? Sounds like you have first hand knowledge.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

One question. What was it soaked in? Water or some "miracle" cleanser? I have a feeling your going to tell us it went from a 2 to a 1.5 since it now has paper loss on the back.

Hey David. I never owned the card so I have no idea what was used on it.

You're correct on the before grade.

[GasHouseGang]

How did you go from a corner that appears to be missing paper to the nice complete corner?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

How did you go from a corner that appears to be missing paper to the nice complete corner?

I think that's a stain/dirt.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Soaking a card in water changes the moisture content.

That's why you let it dry lol

Also, so does moving from Vegas to New Orleans.

Soaking paper in water does not damage it in any way. Museums soak documents that are far more precious than any of our beloved sports cards all the time. The US Constitution, Biblical scrolls, Shakespeare's original writings, etc. These are all cleaned and preserved using the same techniques.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

Go look at his videos.
Removing gunk is ok, not sure just what his formula is, but I'd be concerned about how it affects things long term.

But the fixing creases, corner dings edge dents... no, that's not ok.
One pic on his site shows a 74 Topps with at least one entirely rebuilt corner.

Taking a card with a bent up corner and pushing it back down flat is not making a "rebuilt corner". Rebuilding corners is something entirely different that requires making new card stock and adding it to the card. That's alteration and it's detectable. Let's not pretend that pushing down a bent up corner with your finger is the same thing. I'd wager every penny I've ever made that even YOU (and every single person in this entire hobby) has accidentally dinged a corner and tried to bend it back with their finger multiple times over the years.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you use his products? Sounds like you have first hand knowledge.

I use distilled water. It does the same thing though. You don't need some special formula to flatten out a bent corner. Honestly, this stuff isn't rocket science. Go take a card, toss it in a bowl of water, then let it dry between some paper towels and stick a book on top of it. I promise you'll change your mind afterward.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I think that's a stain/dirt.

Could be, that's why I asked. It's hard to tell for sure from the picture.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Snowman

That's why you let it dry lol

Also, so does moving from Vegas to New Orleans.

Soaking paper in water does not damage it in any way. Museums soak documents that are far more precious than any of our beloved sports cards all the time. The US Constitution, Biblical scrolls, Shakespeare's original writings, etc. These are all cleaned and preserved using the same techniques.

It does alter the card and flushes out the color. Soaked cards are less vibrant.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Could be, that's why I asked. It's hard to tell for sure from the picture.

I think that's the best image I have for the before image but I will check and see if I have or can find a better image.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I use distilled water. It does the same thing though. You don't need some special formula to flatten out a bent corner. Honestly, this stuff isn't rocket science. Go take a card, toss it in a bowl of water, then let it dry between some paper towels and stick a book on top of it. I promise you'll change your mind afterward.

According to numerous collectors on this board, some cards do not soak well. Tossing certain cards in water would severely damage them.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Pat R

To each his own. Personally I don't have a problem with someone removing something that wasn't on a card when it was printed. I do find some of the after grades questionable though.

Does anyone want to take a guess on the before and after grades on this one?

I'm hoping this is one of those trick questions and we all get an answer that most people would like to see, for example BEFORE: 2.5, AFTER: AUTH

Probably not...

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

It does alter the card and flushes out the color. Soaked cards are less vibrant.

This is nonsense. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Eric72

According to numerous collectors on this board, some cards do not soak well. Tossing certain cards in water would severely damage them.

While it is true that some cards do not soak well, I can assure you that most of the people expressing opinions on this board do not know what they are talking about. Most of the claims I've read on this board about certain cards not soaking well are false. Over 99% of vintage cards prior to ~1970 will soak perfectly fine and will not damage the cards at all. There are only a few sets for which this is not true, and for most of those you could debate if they even count as "baseball cards" to begin with.

From my observations on this board, I would estimate that about 80% of the time I read someone claiming that a certain card won't soak well, they're wrong and are simply repeating something they think they heard from someone else and have no experience actually doing it themselves.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Snowman

While it is true that some cards do not soak well, I can assure you that most of the people expressing opinions on this board do not know what they are talking about. Most of the claims I've read on this board about certain cards not soaking well are false. Over 99% of vintage cards prior to ~1970 will soak perfectly fine and will not damage the cards at all. There are only a few sets for which this is not true, and for most of those you could debate if they even count as "baseball cards" to begin with.

From my observations on this board, I would estimate that about 80% of the time I read someone claiming that a certain card won't soak well, they're wrong and are simply repeating something they think they heard from someone else and have no experience actually doing it themselves.

K

[campyfan39]

This thread is fascinating and I hope it keeps going. I didn't know some of the stuff on his videos was even possible. This guy could literally make a living submitting cards he fixed. He has a surgeon's hand and the patience of Job! No way I have ether of those.

The best post on here IMO is the one I quoted part of. If people stopped participating in the pecker measuring contests (aka the registrys) then there would be no conversations about any of this.

Originally Posted by G1911

Of course, this problem all goes away if people just stop playing the game. At least half the people on the anti-alteration side seem to collect and pay premiums for PSA, SGC, et al. As long as we have incompetent graders founded on the myth of an altered card, and most people paying far more money for a made up higher number on their slab than a similarly made up lower one, this is the inevitable result. If folks stopped playing this stupid game, there wouldn't be so many stupid prizes. The game will continue as long as the vast majority are playing this game when they vote with their wallets, if not the mouth.

I am more bothered by the grading companies completely lying about the grade to juice a card (see the last BN Ruth, the 9.5 Mantle, that recent T206 Wagner, etc.) or changing grades for certain submitters and former employees than I am that they cannot tell what is altered and don't put much value on improving that situation.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Soaking a card in water changes the moisture content.

I don't normally jump into these arguments, but I agree with Snowman. The water does not alter the 'chemistry' of the wood fibers that make up the paper. The paper is still paper, whether it is wet or not. It may be easier to say the 'structure' of the molecules that make up the card are not changed. No chemical reaction has occurred which changes the paper into something else. After the card is dried it is still a card made of paper and ink.