2024 Baseball Hall of Fame Tracker

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not sure I see what others see in Billy Wagner. Capable closer, yes. But what makes him a HOFer? Because he was decent for a while?

His workload is historically weak, but in his 15 full seasons only 1 was bad.

7 of those 15 he had a sub-1.00 WHIP. 14 out of 15 he had a sub-1.20 WHIP.

ERA isn't a great stat, but sub-3.00 ERA in 14 out of 15 seasons. For a guy that gets a full inning vs lineups also using up their bench as a last resort it's worth something. He had a sub-2.50 ERA in 9 out 15 (sub-2.00 ERA in 5 out of 15).

The current closer as we know it has only been around since the early/mid-1980s. Unless a failed starter racks up some innings we may never see an excellent closer with more than 1000 innings. "Strong" closers these days might work 1.1ip every so often.

I don't think anyone would complain about having Wagner around during his entire career as their closer...except the Yankees.

[packs]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

His workload is historically weak, but in his 15 full seasons only 1 was bad.

7 of those 15 he had a sub-1.00 WHIP. 14 out of 15 he had a sub-1.20 WHIP.

ERA isn't a great stat, but sub-3.00 ERA in 14 out of 15 seasons. For a guy that gets a full inning vs lineups also using up their bench as a last resort it's worth something. He had a sub-2.50 ERA in 9 out 15 (sub-2.00 ERA in 5 out of 15).

The current closer as we know it has only been around since the early/mid-1980s. Unless a failed starter racks up some innings we may never see an excellent closer with more than 1000 innings. "Strong" closers these days might work 1.1ip every so often.

I don't think anyone would complain about having Wagner around during his entire career as their closer...except the Yankees.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I'm just wondering what makes him a HOFer. Statistically speaking, he is ranked one spot above Joe Nathan, another guy I don't think anyone considers a HOfer.

Joe Nathan was a pitcher with a sub 2.00 ERA five times, with three in a row at one point. His WAR is one less than Wagner's as well with a similar amount of innings pitched.

I just don't see the separation between them where it makes sense Wagner is a HOFer but Nathan didn't get the required 5% last year to stay on the ballot.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by packs

I just don't see the separation between them where it makes sense Wagner is a HOFer but Nathan didn't get the required 5% last year to stay on the ballot.

Nathan was great (imo), but only for 9 seasons. He earned all 6 of his All-Star nods, and probably deserved at least the 7 that Wagner got.

As far as an early exit, and not to move goalposts or change the subject, but Kenny Lofton deserved a -lot- more than an early exit off the ballot. I don't understand some voters.

[toppcat]

Wagner was Mr. Meltdown in the post-season, just horrendous appearance-after-appearance. To me, that tilts him off the ballot.

[BioCRN]

As much as I like Wagner as a HOF'r, he's not a guy who's hill I'd die on to say he absolutely belongs in the Hall.

That said, he is a guy I strongly believe will get in and I have been hording graded cards of him for a long time. The hobby speculation on him has gotten crazy the past couple years so it's not just me gambling on this.

His 1994 Bowman PSA 9 has been so high the past couple years I've traded a couple because it's already at a rather insane price.

My personal favorite is his 1994 Topps Bilingual. I have 2 and plan on keeping 1 for the personal collection.

[StraightRaceCards]

Super excited about my man Beltre getting in. An absolute lock

It is an unpopular opinion, but my take is that any known player to use PED's when they were illegal should not be in the HOF.

Yes, I know that eliminates a lot of great ballplayers, but using PED's is their decision and gave them an unfair edge.

Now, if a player was HOF worthy BEFORE they used steriods, I think it
s worth a hard look there. That is the trickiest part to me, that I still haven't thought through fully yet.

The Clemens and Bonds of the world.

It's a hard decision no matter which way you look at it as there are several known PED users in the Hall.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I am very amazed at where Sheffield is currently standing. Jones, too, for that matter, but that's unrelated.

If Sheffield gets in, watch out for a tidal wave of enlarged cranium PED guys.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I am very amazed at where Sheffield is currently standing. Jones, too, for that matter, but that's unrelated.

If Sheffield gets in, watch out for a tidal wave of enlarged cranium PED guys.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Wagner was Mr. Meltdown in the post-season, just horrendous appearance-after-appearance. To me, that tilts him off the ballot.

This is a very good point.

Wagner was one of the best regular season relievers ever.
He ranks #1 for any LHP in the live-ball era in WHIP (.998) and ERA (2.31) with a minimum or 900 innings pitches (he pitched only 903).

He ranks #1 for opponent batting average at .187 (no one else is even below .200). He could give up 100 consecutive straight hits and still have a lower opponent BA than Mariano Rivera.

And his K/9 inning of 11.92 is the best ever.

But he was dreadful in the postseason. ERA over 10. He appeared in the postseason in 7 seasons, and lost 7 of 8 series, never making it to a World Series. Other relievers in the Hall of Fame: Fingers, Eckersley, Rivera, Lee Smith, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Gossage have all pitched well in the postseason (with the exception of Lee Smith and to a lesser extent Hoffman), and Fingers, Eckersley, Wilhelm, Gossage, and Rivera all won World Series.

With Wagner, I think it comes down to how much you value postseason play. If you place a premium on postseason play, he's a hard sell. Otherwise, I think he belongs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Beltre for sure. Helton I don't feel strongly about but I guess he's deserving. Wagner no but part of that is my feeling relievers as a species are overvalued. Jones, no, Hall of Very Good. Betran needs to wait but eventually I would vote for him.

[Svabinsky78]

Not that Schilling is on the ballot, but how do folks on here feel about Schilling. There is a pretty strong contingency to keep the known PEDers out, but Schilling's mouth is what kept him out. I think had he not told the writers in the last year of his eligibility that they are a cesspool, he probably would have gotten enough to get in on the 10th ballot. But he basically told them, I don't need you to vote me in, and enough of them obliged for him to fall short.

[eastonfalcon19]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Wagner was Mr. Meltdown in the post-season, just horrendous appearance-after-appearance. To me, that tilts him off the ballot.

Trevor Hoffman had a 9.00 ERA in the 98 world series with a blown game 3. Wagner should be in the HOF.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by eastonfalcon19

Trevor Hoffman had a 9.00 ERA in the 98 world series with a blown game 3. Wagner should be in the HOF.

So your argument for Wagner to go into the HOF is that Hoffman sucked in 1998?

If it were up to me relievers wouldn't be allowed in the HOF, if they are such great pitchers why do they spend so much time on the bench?

Maybe Smoky Burgess should also go in due to his .288 career average as a pinch hitter?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

So your argument for Wagner to go into the HOF is that Hoffman sucked in 1998?

If it were up to me relievers wouldn't be allowed in the HOF, if they are such great pitchers why do they spend so much time on the bench?

Maybe Smoky Burgess should also go in due to his .288 career average as a pinch hitter?

It's as good as any other argument for Wagner.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

So your argument for Wagner to go into the HOF is that Hoffman sucked in 1998?

If it were up to me relievers wouldn't be allowed in the HOF, if they are such great pitchers why do they spend so much time on the bench?

Maybe Smoky Burgess should also go in due to his .288 career average as a pinch hitter?

This reflects my feelings exactly. I almost mentioned letting Pinch Hitters in, but refrained. Not a fan of "closers" getting into the Hall unless they were spectacular like Mariano or Gossage. I view it as a contrived/made-up position.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by eastonfalcon19

Trevor Hoffman had a 9.00 ERA in the 98 world series with a blown game 3. Wagner should be in the HOF.

Hoffman has a 3.46 post season ERA. Wagner’s is 10.03. Wagner’s is 289% worse.