Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

campyfan39 · #1 01-19-2024, 08:31 AM

Sorry if I struck a nerve. I am neither a "fool" nor an "asinine" thinker. I am also not new to the hobby as I have been going to shows since the mid 80's. I am extremely close with many dealers including hobby legend Uncle Dick DeCourcey who treats me like a nephew. I also interviewed Kit Young and Dr. Beckett and others for the book I wrote about a decade ago.

I realize things went on before grading. It was mainly trimming, pressing corners and adding color. One of Kurt's videos is fascinating as he removed red ink, a true alteration, from a 1953 Mantle (my favorite set). So grading has limited some of those alterations which is the grading companies singular positive contribution to the hobby IMHO. Yet they still grade cards that are trimmed as has been pointed out on this board many times.

I do not believe cleaning cards and soaking was as wide spread as it is now. With social media and videos like Kurt's and forums like this people are learning about it and seeing examples of how it works. I for one have not ever used one of Kurts "products" and I have yet to get up the nerve to soak a single card (though I may try a base card soon for fun).

What I find truly striking about your post is that you recognize the Wagner was trimmed and assert it "should not have been graded but it was and that was wrong." Then you make an incredible statement and say "but at the same time from a business perspective it wasn’t and would have been slabbed at that time by any company that existed. Right or wrong".

So even though a card had been clearly altered and at least one of the graders has admitted (in the book and the 30 for 30) that he knew it, that was ok from a business perspective? So it is horrible to use substances to clean cards or improve creases but its fine to grade a card that should have been labeled "Altered" for business purposes? Yikes! He knew that it would kill PSA if they rejected that card. So for money they essentially lied. Not to mention the hundreds of millions made since for the company and the trimmed card itself.

If you don't think grading and the registry is the main driving force in why this has become so wide spread then I don't know what to say. It is not "asanine thinking" it is instead basic logic and supply and demand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glynparson

If you think this wasn’t going on long.before grading became the norm you are a fool. It existed before PSA was a company by many many years and was a big reason PSA was able to gain some traction. Yes I get the Wagner was trimmed. That card should never have been graded but it was and that was wrong but at the same time from a business perspective it wasn’t and would have been slabbed at that time by any company that existed. Right or wrong. But thinking card doctoring is somehow a product of card grading is truly asinine thinking. As for this card in the og post if it is just water I have no issue with soaking if it’s chemicals it’s wrong but people will do it anyways.

steve B · #2 01-19-2024, 09:05 AM

AS far as paper and the use of water goes.

I believe both groups are partly correct.

One of the things that makes paper work, especially in wood pulp based paper is that the original maceration to produce the fibers also dissolves or partly dissolves the lignin that holds the cellulose fibers together.
During drying, that lignin solidifies.

This is the same as the process for steaming and bending wood.

It's more complicated than that, since there's some bonding between sugars that are part of the cellulose, and other things besides just lignin.

So soaking to remove a crease as this guy does is basically re dissolving the lignins and probably breaking the sugar bonds between the fibers. The fiber length which affects the density and strength of the paper was probably changed within the crease.
That softening allows what is essentially remaking the paper in the crease.

The chemistry - that there is cellulose fibers bonding and lignin as a sort of "glue" as well, does not change.
The fibers in the repaired area do get rearranged.

Enough soaking might change how much lignin is present. Less will tend to make the paper weaker.
In modern papers, there may be additives or a higher cotton fiber content to slow the Lignin degrading which helps form acid that will eventually ruin the paper. Soaking something like and 86 fleer basketball card might remove some of these additives.

The chemistry in most cases probably doesn't change enough to make a difference, but since some lignin or other binders will always be lost it does change.

I don't disagree with a light surface cleaning with water, a few decades of gunk accumulated from just ordinary air exposure is probably best removed.*
Trying to flatten a dinged corner so it doesn't get worse? Yeah, we've probably all done that. Using water and tools so that dinged corner gets overlooked by graders? Probably not as many.

*I've done this to a couple cards, less than 5 and I'm entirely open about which ones. One literally had soot deposits that were into the cracks in the surface coating. another had soot on the reverse. Neither cleaned up all that well.One was fine, the other ended up with back damage. Another soaked card was used to show how water and pressure can't cause an offset transfer, wood grain from the pressing got pressed into the card, and last I checked was still present. (Relax, it's a T206 common in F-G condition. It's not much worse than before.)

jchcollins · #3 01-19-2024, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

So even though a card had been clearly altered and at least one of the graders has admitted (in the book and the 30 for 30) that he knew it, that was ok from a business perspective? So it is horrible to use substances to clean cards or improve creases but its fine to grade a card that should have been labeled "Altered" for business purposes? Yikes! He knew that it would kill PSA if they rejected that card. So for money they essentially lied. Not to mention the hundreds of millions made since for the company and the trimmed card itself.

Agreed this is wonky logic. If the "good for the hobby" argument that was used (depending on who you believe) when, wink wink, David Hall and others at PSA in the early 90's gave the Wagner they knew was trimmed an 8 assumes that profiting from such skulduggery is what makes it "good" - then nobody today should have any problem with any type of restoration or alteration so that all vintage cards can then be resubbed and get 8's and higher, and be sold at wildly higher prices.

Clearly this isn't the case.

Ironic to think - professional grading ostensibly came about because of the problems with card doctoring and the "wild west" scene in collecting 30+ years ago. Today however, due to the profit motive and ability to get such cards into high grade slabs anyway - the main driver that keeps alteration prevalent turns out to also be grading.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 01-19-2024, 09:44 AM

If as is commonly believed the Wagner was sheet cut and not pack issued, why does it matter if it was then trimmed? It was never anything but an AUTH.

jchcollins · #5 01-19-2024, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If as is commonly believed the Wagner was sheet cut and not pack issued, why does it matter if it was then trimmed? It was never anything but an AUTH.

It doesn't. It is AUTH. As a story, it sounds better / juicier because Mastro used either scissors or an office paper cutter or something to get it out of the sheet. It doesn't matter that he didn't "trim" 1/64 or whatever off the edge like we think of in traditional "trimming" to those telling the story of why the card is bad, or why Bill did something wrong.

But yes, to say that David Hall and others in that room didn't know it was at least sheet cut is absurd. That guy once owned the most complete T206 master set in the world? On the 30 for 30 he says "It didn't look trimmed to me." Really? Jeez do better. That's what an 11 year old kid at a card show would say. They were paying PSA, as supposedly the world's foremost experts on that type of cards - and that's the explanation PSA came up with? No wonder there will never be any "grading reports" out of that outfit.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 01-19-2024, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

It doesn't. It is AUTH. As a story, it sounds better / juicier because Mastro used either scissors or an office paper cutter or something to get it out of the sheet. It doesn't matter that he didn't "trim" 1/64 or whatever off the edge like we think of in traditional "trimming" to those telling the story of why the card is bad, or why Bill did something wrong.

But yes, to say that David Hall and others in that room didn't know it was at least sheet cut is absurd. That guy once owned the most complete T206 master set in the world? On the 30 for 30 he says "It didn't look trimmed to me." Really? Jeez do better. That's what an 11 year old kid at a card show would say. They were paying PSA, as supposedly the world's foremost experts on that type of cards - and that's the explanation they come up with? No wonder there will never be any "grading reports" out of that outfit.

As I understand it, it was already sheet cut when Mastro acquired it. He didn't cut it from the sheet, that was done at an unknown time by an unknown person.

jchcollins · #7 01-19-2024, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I understand it, it was already sheet cut when Mastro acquired it. He didn't cut it from the sheet, that was done at an unknown time by an unknown person.

I thought that him and Rob L. saw / bought the original piece when it was a sheet (with other cards) in the early 1980's. I could be wrong on that.

If what you say is right, then maybe Bill's was a more "traditional" trim job, if the card resembled something like the Jumbo Wagner just with oversized borders when they got it.

campyfan39 · #8 01-19-2024, 10:15 AM

He admitted to trimming it with a paper cutter to make the borders better and corners sharper. This after denying it multiple times of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I thought that him and Rob L. saw / bought the original piece when it was a sheet (with other cards) in the early 1980's. I could be wrong on that.

If what you say is right, then maybe Bill's was a more "traditional" trim job, if the card resembled something like the Jumbo Wagner just with oversized borders when they got it.

cgjackson222 · #9 01-19-2024, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I thought that him and Rob L. saw / bought the original piece when it was a sheet (with other cards) in the early 1980's. I could be wrong on that.

If what you say is right, then maybe Bill's was a more "traditional" trim job, if the card resembled something like the Jumbo Wagner just with oversized borders when they got it.

In the book "The Card" it says that Bill Mastro gave Rob Lifson (who founded REA) a lesser Wagner (which Lifson sold weeks later for $30K) in exchange for $25K to buy the jumbo Wagner from a guy named Alan Ray who had consigned the card (along with an Eddie Plank and many others) to Bill Sevchuck, who owned a card store in Hicksville, NY.

The Wagner had wavy edges and a red printer's line at the top. Mastro apparently commented about the Wagner, "It's not cut right, but I'll take it off your hands."

After Mastro obtained the jumbo Wagner, he proceeded to trim it so that it had straight edges.

Alan Ray has never definitively said where he got the cards from, but at one point claimed it was a relative.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 01-19-2024, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I thought that him and Rob L. saw / bought the original piece when it was a sheet (with other cards) in the early 1980's. I could be wrong on that.

If what you say is right, then maybe Bill's was a more "traditional" trim job, if the card resembled something like the Jumbo Wagner just with oversized borders when they got it.

No, it was a single card when Alan Ray sold it to him. But sheet cut by all accounts. I don't think anyone has traced it back to the owner of the sheet. But if this is correct, all Mastro did was make a nicer looking AUTH. The whole trimmed or not trimmed thing seems a red herring.

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