Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[G1911]

As for the Wagner, it seems deductively very very unlikely it was cut from a 'sheet' as in a full sheet or anything close to a full sheet.

If it was, where are the others?

[jggames]

Originally Posted by G1911

As for the Wagner, it seems deductively very very unlikely it was cut from a 'sheet' as in a full sheet or anything close to a full sheet.

If it was, where are the others?

According to Mastro there was a whole pile of others.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jggames

According to Mastro there was a whole pile of others.

Mastro did not claim there was a whole pile of other Wagners. There should be several Wagners if it was an uncut sheet.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by G1911

Mastro did not claim there was a whole pile of other Wagners. There should be several Wagners if it was an uncut sheet.

I don't want to derail this thread about alterations, but I should have clarified, I did not mean a whole pile of Wagners, he said the others were "obviously cut" from a sheet when he went in to pick up the Wagner

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jggames

I don't want to derail this thread about alterations, but I should have clarified, I did not mean a whole pile of Wagners, he said the others were "obviously cut" from a sheet when he went in to pick up the Wagner

A T206 sheet repeats a subject vertically. On some sheets this seems to go the entire length of the column, but sometimes the column changes subject part way through and then repeats that new subject over and over. All I am saying is that this Wagner is very, very unlikely to be from a sheet or near sheet. There may have been a couple strips that were destroyed. I've always heard it's a sheet and this just seems to not mesh with the actual evidence. A lot has been said about this find, its origin, and its location that doesn't add up.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by G1911

A T206 sheet repeats a subject vertically. On some sheets this seems to go the entire length of the column, but sometimes the column changes subject part way through and then repeats that new subject over and over. All I am saying is that this Wagner is very, very unlikely to be from a sheet or near sheet. There may have been a couple strips that were destroyed. I've always heard it's a sheet and this just seems to not mesh with the actual evidence. A lot has been said about this find, its origin, and its location that doesn't add up.

I could've sworn somewhere I read it was a strip of like 8 cards, but I won't swear to it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I could've sworn somewhere I read it was a strip of like 8 cards, but I won't swear to it.

It would be immensely helpful if we could ever show anything about this alleged item. Even if it's just a list of the other minty cards that were present, we might be able to align with other evidence and gain a bit more information on sheets.

T card sheets/sheet remnants are incredibly rare and it is unfortunate the baseball ones seem to get destroyed so quickly that they aren't even photographed first, leaving non-baseball sheets/remnants as the bulk of demonstrable uncut evidence.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

As for the Wagner, it seems deductively very very unlikely it was cut from a 'sheet' as in a full sheet or anything close to a full sheet.

If it was, where are the others?

The Plank sold at the same time is said, I think, to be from the same sheet. Have to refresh my memory though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

As for the Wagner, it seems deductively very very unlikely it was cut from a 'sheet' as in a full sheet or anything close to a full sheet.

If it was, where are the others?

I thought part of the thinking was no pack issued Piedmont backs have been found. Could it have been a panel, i don't know, but the point is that it was not originally a factory issued single.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought part of the thinking was no pack issued Piedmont backs have been found. Could it have been a panel, i don't know, but the point is that it was not originally a factory issued single.

I have no idea what the origin is. We've had members claim to have evidence of the origin but then stop posting once they are asked for it. There's the rumor photographs of the pre-trimmed state that nobody has ever shown. We have different versions, sometimes conflicting, told at different times from some of the people involved.

It seems very unlikely that there was an uncut sheet found, or a nearly uncut sheet. The single subject presentation of it and the Plank make this very, very unlikely - what we have does not match a sheet. Maybe it was strips. Maybe there were some oversized scraps. Maybe the cards are the product of the conspiracy theory of a 1950's perfect reprint ring that has been endorsed here. Maybe Santa made them in his shop.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I have no idea what the origin is. We've had members claim to have evidence of the origin but then stop posting once they are asked for it. There's the rumor photographs of the pre-trimmed state that nobody has ever shown. We have different versions, sometimes conflicting, told at different times from some of the people involved.

It seems very unlikely that there was an uncut sheet found, or a nearly uncut sheet. The single subject presentation of it and the Plank make this very, very unlikely - what we have does not match a sheet. Maybe it was strips. Maybe there were some oversized scraps. Maybe the cards are the product of the conspiracy theory of a 1950's perfect reprint ring that has been endorsed here. Maybe Santa made them in his shop.

Perhaps it was a strip not a full sheet. Again, I think the Piedmont back is part of the analysis why it likely was not from a pack. Not my expertise though. I've heard that 50s rumor too, what more do you know about it, always found that interesting. Part of the issue is that the provenance does not go back beyond Alan Ray, as far as I know.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps it was a strip not a full sheet. Again, I think the Piedmont back is part of the analysis why it likely was not from a pack. Not my expertise though. I've heard that 50s rumor too, what more do you know about it, always found that interesting. Part of the issue is that the provenance does not go back beyond Alan Ray, as far as I know.

I believe the myth of the perfect-50's-fake-ring predates when I was even born. It was certainly circulating when I was a kid in the hobby even. It's a hobby oral tradition that crops up now and again, but I always hear a slightly different version. The consistent elements every time are that it was centered in the 50's and 60's, in New York or an unnamed place, had access to original equipment (often said to be plates, even though they didn't use printing plates at all for these) and involved multiple people (none of whom ever have a name). This ring produced fake Wagners and Planks and is sometimes said to have created the Doyle's that did not even exist at all originally. A number of the big cards to crop up in the 70's and 80's supposedly come from this ring. I doubt any of this is significantly different from what you and everyone else has heard over the years.

Obviously, it is untrue and just an old wives type of tale, like most 'perfect crime' stories where nobody telling it can state how they know this, who specifically did it, produce even a tiny shred of evidence, and wraps up too cleanly and vaguely.


Off memory, we had a poster claiming the sheet was found in New York and not the Florida market where I believe Ray claimed to find it in our last thread focused on the card. He declined to produce his alleged evidence (it doesn't exist) and stopped posting when asked for it. I would doubt the card was pack issued or that the card is fake, the back is a clue it's less likely to be pack issued but the circumstances of the find seem the stronger proof that this wasn't a card that was just found in somebody's things like all/most of the rest of the Wagner's and Plank's known. I don't know what the true origin is, but its almost certainly not an "uncut sheet" as is always said on this subject, because the output does not match that input.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I believe the myth of the perfect-50's-fake-ring predates when I was even born. It was certainly circulating when I was a kid in the hobby even. It's a hobby oral tradition that crops up now and again, but I always hear a slightly different version. The consistent elements every time are that it was centered in the 50's and 60's, in New York or an unnamed place, had access to original equipment (often said to be plates, even though they didn't use printing plates at all for these) and involved multiple people (none of whom ever have a name). This ring produced fake Wagners and Planks and is sometimes said to have created the Doyle's that did not even exist at all originally. A number of the big cards to crop up in the 70's and 80's supposedly come from this ring. I doubt any of this is significantly different from what you and everyone else has heard over the years.

Obviously, it is untrue and just an old wives type of tale, like most 'perfect crime' stories where nobody telling it can state how they know this, who specifically did it, produce even a tiny shred of evidence, and wraps up too cleanly and vaguely.


Off memory, we had a poster claiming the sheet was found in New York and not the Florida market where I believe Ray claimed to find it in our last thread focused on the card. He declined to produce his alleged evidence (it doesn't exist) and stopped posting when asked for it. I would doubt the card was pack issued or that the card is fake, the back is a clue it's less likely to be pack issued but the circumstances of the find seem the stronger proof that this wasn't a card that was just found in somebody's things like all/most of the rest of the Wagner's and Plank's known. I don't know what the true origin is, but its almost certainly not an "uncut sheet" as is always said on this subject, because the output does not match that input.

If it's not pack issued, it was an AUTH even before Mastro cut it, would you agree with that or do you have a different take? All I recall about the rumor is it had something to do with Long Island which is also where Sevchuk had his shop.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If it's not pack issued, it was an AUTH even before Mastro cut it, would you agree with that or do you have a different take? All I recall about the rumor is it had something to do with Long Island which is also where Sevchuk had his shop.

I would have a slightly different take. A card is not automatically an Auth for not coming in a pack. If a card is fully printed and machine cut, I don’t see how it isn’t eligible for a grade. For example, many Topps Vault cards have been given grades because they were fully produced and machine cut. Being in a pack isn’t the determination. Being handcut is. Whether it was trimmed once or twice seems irrelevant. The big problem is if they cut it off a sheet. Trimming after that is just more trimming, it’s already trimmed.

Ray’s story is his sheet was from a Florida flea market, as I recall. He took it to Sevchuck’s shop, but there’s no one besides Ray who can attest to anything before he did that, just his story.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If it's not pack issued, it was an AUTH even before Mastro cut it, would you agree with that or do you have a different take? All I recall about the rumor is it had something to do with Long Island which is also where Sevchuk had his shop.

I think it is highly unlikely that the Gretzky Wagner is an original T206 printed card from 1909-1911. There's just way too much shadiness surrounding the story. It doesn't add up.