Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

jchcollins · #1 01-19-2024, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Kurt’s does way more than soaking, and is well known for removing creases, dings, etc. that is clearly alteration, except in the eyes of those who want to profit off of it.

All fine and well, "that's alteration", except that you would not be able to prove it on a card 10 minutes later. Until you can, this discussion is entirely academic in the real world where people continue to add cards to their collections - oblivious now by what we have just said as to what may or may not have happened to them in the past to affect our perception of how desirable they should be considered.

G1911 · #2 01-19-2024, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

All fine and well, "that's alteration", except that you would not be able to prove it on a card 10 minutes later. Until you can, this discussion is entirely academic in the real world where people continue to add cards to their collections - oblivious now by what we have just said as to what may or may not have happened to them in the past to affect our perception of how desirable they should be considered.

It is hardly always impossible to prove. Many alterations leave signs. I'm not sure I can ever philosophically ascribe to a point of view that doing something and not being able to be caught or not being caught makes it okay and fine. That is a highly problematic path.

jchcollins · #3 01-19-2024, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

It is hardly always impossible to prove. Many alterations leave signs. I'm not sure I can ever philosophically ascribe to a point of view that doing something and not being able to be caught or not being caught makes it okay and fine. That is a highly problematic path.

Ok, but at the end of the day you and everyone else judging only on the act would have to admit that it�s a theoretical problem. If by definition you �don�t know� that you may be collecting an altered card - and that doesn�t stop you - well then it must not be too big of a problem. Right?

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Peter_Spaeth · #4 01-19-2024, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

No, but at the end of the day you and everyone else judging only on the act would have to admit that it’s a theoretical problem. If by definition you “don’t know” that you may be collecting an altered card - and that doesn’t stop you - well then it must not be too big of a problem then is it?

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Interesting question for sure. Now, suppose someone sold you a fake Rolex so good you couldn't tell the difference. Same analysis?

jchcollins · #5 01-19-2024, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting question for sure. Now, suppose someone sold you a fake Rolex so good you couldn't tell the difference. Same analysis?

Next logical step - thank you. So yes, this is basically my fear with vintage cards. What if someone invests enough in AI combined with old school practices to where suddenly someday soon the market is rife with fakes so good (everything being perfectly centered might be the one dead tell...) that even longtime experts, collectors, N54 members, what have you - can't tell the difference?

I think the embarrassment / possibility here that we all don't want to admit is that someday fakes that good will be so common, that none of us know the difference. And that thought genuinely terrifies me.

bnorth · #6 01-19-2024, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Next logical step - thank you. So yes, this is basically my fear with vintage cards. What if someone invests enough in AI combined with old school practices to where suddenly someday soon the market is rife with fakes so good (everything being perfectly centered might be the one dead tell...) that even longtime experts, collectors, N54 members, what have you - can't tell the difference?

I think the embarrassment / possibility here that we all don't want to admit is that someday fakes that good will be so common, that none of us know the difference. And that thought genuinely terrifies me.

This is the exact reason buying high end cards or investing any real money in cards is something I would never ever do. AI isn't needed for any reason. It was made by a very simple process that can very simply be done again on similar equipment. I can't give names but I can 100% guarantee it has happened in the past on a small scale with star player cards from the 60s.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 01-19-2024, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Next logical step - thank you. So yes, this is basically my fear with vintage cards. What if someone invests enough in AI combined with old school practices to where suddenly someday soon the market is rife with fakes so good (everything being perfectly centered might be the one dead tell...) that even longtime experts, collectors, N54 members, what have you - can't tell the difference?

I think the embarrassment / possibility here that we all don't want to admit is that someday fakes that good will be so common, that none of us know the difference. And that thought genuinely terrifies me.

It would be a concern if you still are an active buyer, for sure. At least for slabbed cards, older certs would only be subject to the current risks.

jchcollins · #8 01-19-2024, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

At least for slabbed cards, older certs would only be subject to the current risks.

Very true, Peter. So many people these days poo poo the older slabs. If I'm looking at the card and not the slab - I don't mind them at all so long as they aren't all scratched up. Get some sleeves, people!

rjackson44 · #9 01-19-2024, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting question for sure. Now, suppose someone sold you a fake Rolex so good you couldn't tell the difference. Same analysis?

I own a stainlees steel Daytona there are copies that are very scary now very scary,box and paperwork look scary

bnorth · #10 01-19-2024, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjackson44

I own a stainlees steel Daytona there are copies that are very scary now very scary,box and paperwork look scary

I know it is off topic but I am on a watch forum. They have shown Rolex replicas so good you can exchange any piece on them with a real Rolex part.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 01-19-2024, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I know it is off topic but I am on a watch forum. They have shown Rolex replicas so good you can exchange any piece on them with a real Rolex part.

The serial number would still prevent one from being sold as the real thing to a diligent buyer, is that right?

nwobhm · #12 01-19-2024, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

interesting question for sure. Now, suppose someone sold you a fake rolex so good that rolex can�t tell the difference. Same analysis?

fify

G1911 · #13 01-19-2024, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Ok, but at the end of the day you and everyone else judging only on the act would have to admit that it�s a theoretical problem. If by definition you �don�t know� that you may be collecting an altered card - and that doesn�t stop you - well then it must not be too big of a problem. Right?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The biggest problem is your underlying assumption that card alteration is impossible to detect. That is big news to many of us!

Let's just assume this assumption is true, even though it quite obviously is not. If I can make a fake $100 bill so good that you can't detect it and the authenticator you bring it to can't detect and the US Mint doesn't catch me, is it okay for me do this? Is it okay for me to pass off this item when I sell it or use it in a commercial transaction as a real $100 bill? Is it not "too big of a problem" because you can't see it's fake?

I don't think it takes a moral high horse to see the massive problems here with this train of ethics, or lack thereof.

jchcollins · #14 01-19-2024, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

The biggest problem is your underlying assumption that card alteration is impossible to detect. That is big news to many of us!

It should not be impossible to detect. I hope long term that in all cases, even Kurt's - that is not the conclusion. I would dearly love to be proven wrong, and that Kurt's spray in fact is traceable in some way, shape, or form - by some sleuth grader of the future. My point in this thread is simply that it's not, or at least not yet. It's clear from his advertising, YT videos, and social media posts that the cards he cleans / restores / alters - whatever you want to call it - are getting through the TPG's like PSA and SGC if not more with astonishing speed and consistency.

Make no mistake - my line is the physical proof. If a method is devised 240 years from now to tell exactly what was done to each of our cards at each perspective point in their histories - then yes, fine. Bang, you got me. You got Kurt.

But if you cannot provide physical proof that a card is in fact altered - the world we currently live in will conclude that it hasn't been. Frowning upon more than that at this point is an exercise in futility and kind of pointless, IMO.

G1911 · #15 01-19-2024, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

It should not be impossible to detect. I hope long term that in all cases, even Kurt's - that is not the conclusion. I would dearly love to be proven wrong, and that Kurt's spray in fact is traceable in some way, shape, or form - by some sleuth grader of the future. My point in this thread is simply that it's not, or at least not yet. It's clear from his advertising, YT videos, and social media posts that the cards he cleans / restores / alters - whatever you want to call it - are getting through the TPG's like PSA and SGC if not more with astonishing speed and consistency.

Make no mistake - my line is the physical proof. If a method is devised 240 years from now to tell exactly what was done to each of our cards at each perspective point in their histories - then yes, fine. Bang, you got me. You got Kurt.

But if you cannot provide physical proof that a card is in fact altered - the world we currently live in will conclude that it hasn't been. Frowning upon more than that at this point is an exercise in futility and kind of pointless, IMO.

I don�t see how I can reasonably ever endorse this standard, where if something passes a grading company it is then totally fine. I get this is what keeps the money train running, and clearly this board is growing in the support for such an anything-is-fine-if-corporate-grades-it-approach, but I don�t think a slab gets rid of the problem or the dishonesty.. It was not long ago we all used to say the same thing I am - altering a card and not disclosing that when selling it is wrong and can be fraud. The holder it is in does not change that. Again, many times we can show the card was indeed altered.

jchcollins · #16 01-19-2024, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I don’t see how I can reasonably ever endorse this standard, where if something passes a grading company it is then totally fine. I get this is what keeps the money train running, and clearly this board is growing in the support for such an anything-is-fine-if-corporate-grades-it-approach, but I don’t think a slab gets rid of the problem or the dishonesty.. It was not long ago we all used to say the same thing I am - altering a card and not disclosing that when selling it is wrong and can be fraud. The holder it is in does not change that. Again, many times we can show the card was indeed altered.

I was using the grading companies as an example, not the gold standard. Clearly all of them have had issues at this point, either with just making mistakes or in some cases actually being complicit in getting altered cards into legit slabs.

My point with the graders was that unlike many on this thread who seem to think it's enough to shake their fist at some card doctor in abstentia, grading at least is an attempt to evaluate the physical condition of the card that cannot talk about what did or did not happen to it a year ago, or 70 years ago. It is an attempt - such that it has evolved to at this point - to examine the physical evidence.

steve B · #17 01-22-2024, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

It should not be impossible to detect. I hope long term that in all cases, even Kurt's - that is not the conclusion. I would dearly love to be proven wrong, and that Kurt's spray in fact is traceable in some way, shape, or form - by some sleuth grader of the future. My point in this thread is simply that it's not, or at least not yet. It's clear from his advertising, YT videos, and social media posts that the cards he cleans / restores / alters - whatever you want to call it - are getting through the TPG's like PSA and SGC if not more with astonishing speed and consistency.

Make no mistake - my line is the physical proof. If a method is devised 240 years from now to tell exactly what was done to each of our cards at each perspective point in their histories - then yes, fine. Bang, you got me. You got Kurt.

But if you cannot provide physical proof that a card is in fact altered - the world we currently live in will conclude that it hasn't been. Frowning upon more than that at this point is an exercise in futility and kind of pointless, IMO.

Can't tell and can't tell from the <1 minute they spend at a grading company are very different.

jchcollins · #18 01-22-2024, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Can't tell and can't tell from the <1 minute they spend at a grading company are very different.

Fair.

bnorth · #19 01-22-2024, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Can't tell and can't tell from the <1 minute they spend at a grading company are very different.

Couldn't agree more.

Unless there is a HUGE red flashing light or the card doctor was a blind drunk third grader. The quick look many graders take isn't going to catch much.

campyfan39 · #20 01-19-2024, 04:30 PM

A total non sequitur.
You would be creating a fake Rolex or fake $100 bill from scratch. Those are counterfeits. Nobody is advocating that so you are fighting a straw man. Kurts is not producing fake cards

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Let's just assume this assumption is true, even though it quite obviously is not. If I can make a fake $100 bill so good that you can't detect it and the authenticator you bring it to can't detect and the US Mint doesn't catch me, is it okay for me do this? Is it okay for me to pass off this item when I sell it or use it in a commercial transaction as a real $100 bill? Is it not "too big of a problem" because you can't see it's fake?

I don't think it takes a moral high horse to see the massive problems here with this train of ethics, or lack thereof.

G1911 · #21 01-19-2024, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

A total non sequitur.
You would be creating a fake Rolex or fake $100 bill from scratch. Those are counterfeits. Nobody is advocating that so you are fighting a straw man. Kurts is not producing fake cards

Yes that�s the entire point - a consequentialist standard allows anything. If something is okay because a grader signed off or you can�t detect it, then a whole lot of things become okay. That�s not a reasonable standard - if you�re really good at the deception it�s totally fine.

Peter_Spaeth · #22 01-20-2024, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

A total non sequitur.
You would be creating a fake Rolex or fake $100 bill from scratch. Those are counterfeits. Nobody is advocating that so you are fighting a straw man. Kurts is not producing fake cards

So the notion that "it doesn't matter if you can't detect the difference" applies to real but worked on cards, but not to counterfeits? That's fine, but doesn't that undercut the rationale for the former? We're just doing Socratic method here on that position, not suggesting it's exactly the same.

campyfan39 · #23 01-20-2024, 03:31 PM

Respectfully, you missed my point and may not have understood why I made the reply I did. Also, I haven't even suggested "it doesn't matter if you can't detect the difference."
Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the notion that "it doesn't matter if you can't detect the difference" applies to real but worked on cards, but not to counterfeits? That's fine, but doesn't that undercut the rationale for the former? We're just doing Socratic method here on that position, not suggesting it's exactly the same.

jchcollins · #24 01-22-2024, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the notion that "it doesn't matter if you can't detect the difference" applies to real but worked on cards, but not to counterfeits? That's fine, but doesn't that undercut the rationale for the former? We're just doing Socratic method here on that position, not suggesting it's exactly the same.

Not sure if anyone cares at this point, but I suggested that it doesn't matter. That's not entirely accurate. My point was more to suggest the difficulty / current lack of concern in linking the two is problematic. It would be much easier for graders and collectors with any morals to point out "this was bad, and here's proof of how it was bad I can show you even much later..."

For what it is worth by my earlier quip logic - if a Rolex was entirely fake and you "can't tell" I think that places this situation in the same boat. We can deplore fake Rolex makers for the act, but in the meantime a lot of fake Rolexes may trade as authentic with nobody much the wiser.

Snowman · #25 01-19-2024, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

The biggest problem is your underlying assumption that card alteration is impossible to detect. That is big news to many of us!

Let's just assume this assumption is true, even though it quite obviously is not. If I can make a fake $100 bill so good that you can't detect it and the authenticator you bring it to can't detect and the US Mint doesn't catch me, is it okay for me do this? Is it okay for me to pass off this item when I sell it or use it in a commercial transaction as a real $100 bill? Is it not "too big of a problem" because you can't see it's fake?

I don't think it takes a moral high horse to see the massive problems here with this train of ethics, or lack thereof.

Why do you guys keep making these false comparisons to counterfeit items like fake Rolexes and $100 bills? How is this even remotely relevant to the topic of this thread which is whether or not cleaning a card (as in the Wagner from the OP) ought to result in someone going to hell?

G1911 · #26 01-19-2024, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowman

why do you guys keep making these false comparisons to counterfeit items like fake rolexes and $100 bills? How is this even remotely relevant to the topic of this thread which is whether or not cleaning a card (as in the wagner from the op) ought to result in someone going to hell?

#117.

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