Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This may be true for certain alterations, like subtle recoloring, a rebuilt corner done professionally, or a bad trim job, but for most of the stuff we're taking about in this thread (e.g., soaking or cleaning cards like the Wagner), you could stare at it for hours and you're not going to find evidence of the fact that it was cleaned because there's nothing there to detect.

A lot of what Kurt does is way beyond cleaning.

I don't see a problem with cleaning, I wouldn't try with the card from post 178, because some white glues don't dissolve with water. I might try a bit of water and a q tip to see if it will. But that would be a coin toss on wasting the money to reslab it.

Undetectable? maybe on some sets. Not on all sets.
The way curt presses out creases and other damage is almost for sure detectable.
And I've offered to prove it, with no takers.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

A lot of what Kurt does is way beyond cleaning.

I don't see a problem with cleaning, I wouldn't try with the card from post 178, because some white glues don't dissolve with water. I might try a bit of water and a q tip to see if it will. But that would be a coin toss on wasting the money to reslab it.

Undetectable? maybe on some sets. Not on all sets.
The way curt presses out creases and other damage is almost for sure detectable.
And I've offered to prove it, with no takers.

A $15 coinflip for a gain of $1000? if it cleans up seems like a pretty easy decision from an EV standpoint.

I agree that pressing out creases is detectable. But Kurt doesn't press them out. Ever. In fact he expressly states numerous times that to do so is a bad idea and damages cards. He only adds moisture to the cards and then let's them dry slowly. Usually, the creases he works on do look somewhat better, but they rarely disappear. They typically just look more relaxed.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

A $15 coinflip for a gain of $1000? if it cleans up seems like a pretty easy decision from an EV standpoint.

I agree that pressing out creases is detectable. But Kurt doesn't press them out. Ever. In fact he expressly states numerous times that to do so is a bad idea and damages cards. He only adds moisture to the cards and then let's them dry slowly. Usually, the creases he works on do look somewhat better, but they rarely disappear. They typically just look more relaxed.

Did you even watch the video with the 86 Jordan?

Soak, poke at the crease with an artists blending stick, smooth with a glass tube on a stick, press between glass to dry out.
All that is right there in the video.

I can't see that as anything but pressing out a crease. Is it still visible in the video? Yes, a bit. But there's little enough that it would change the grade. If missed it would be a drastic change.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by steve B

Did you even watch the video with the 86 Jordan?

Soak, poke at the crease with an artists blending stick, smooth with a glass tube on a stick, press between glass to dry out.
All that is right there in the video.

I can't see that as anything but pressing out a crease. Is it still visible in the video? Yes, a bit. But there's little enough that it would change the grade. If missed it would be a drastic change.

PSA 4 to PSA 7:

https://youtube.com/shorts/yM8EDunuN...BxrlCbAkVRCuQo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

PSA 4 to PSA 7:

https://youtube.com/shorts/yM8EDunuN...BxrlCbAkVRCuQo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

If we have reached the point where people justify that, then I don't recognize what this hobby has become. We used to value the relative worth of cards on how well they had survived whatever they had been through, not who could do the slickest job of fixing them. What the (*&^& ever happened to originality?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If we have reached the point where people justify that, then I don't recognize what this hobby has become. We used to value the relative worth of cards on how well they had survived whatever they had been through, not who could do the slickest job of fixing them. What the (*&^& ever happened to originality?

Not long ago it was really just the one guy defending such conduct here, but after this thread there is apparently a large and growing contingent here who are openly in favor of any fraud, altering and misrepresentation that can be gotten away with now. I'd pretend to be surprised but $$$ > anything.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Not long ago it was really just the one guy defending such conduct here, but after this thread there is apparently a large and growing contingent here who are openly in favor of any fraud, altering and misrepresentation that can be gotten away with now. I'd pretend to be surprised but $$$ > anything.

I'm resigned to it and acknowledge it, but I still hate it. It shifts the focus completely from originality to who can do the most and get away with it. And people twist themselves into pretzels to justify or downplay it.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Not long ago it was really just the one guy defending such conduct here, but after this thread there is apparently a large and growing contingent here who are openly in favor of any fraud, altering and misrepresentation that can be gotten away with now. I'd pretend to be surprised but $$$ > anything.

The vast majority of collectors are completely OK with this. They've just been scared to express their opinions publicly because people like you are out there with pitchforks trying to crucify anyone who doesn't see things the same way as you. It takes someone like me who doesn't give two Fs about what others think of me to call it like it is. You can continue to call it fraud until the cows come home, but that will never make it actual fraud. You're in the minority here. It is what it is.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If we have reached the point where people justify that, then I don't recognize what this hobby has become. We used to value the relative worth of cards on how well they had survived whatever they had been through, not who could do the slickest job of fixing them. What the (*&^& ever happened to originality?

I think the disappointment stems from people just now becoming aware of the fact that this stuff goes on behind the scenes. People create these romantic ideals in their heads of how something "ought" to be, and just assume or pretend that it is such. But make no mistake about it, this stuff has been going on since the beginning of the hobby. People have been soaking cards since the day they were made. It has never stopped happening and never will. As soon as someone soaks a card for the first time and realizes, "Wow! You can do that and it doesn't damage the card in any way!?" their perception changes. They tell their friends, their friends do the same, and it perpetuates. Then people also learn that soaking a card, or even just adding a little bit of moisture or humidity, can also improve things like bent corners and creases.

I think some people just tried to keep it a secret because they want to "hold all the cards" so-to-speak. They want to make money from it and they don't want competition. If too many people know how to clean cards, then there's no money in it for them. But with social media and the DIY/how-to culture of the younger generations, knowledge is power and is much more freely available. There are countless YouTube channels today that are dedicated to restoration techniques of anything and everything collectible from antique tools to box cars to casino chips to comic books to sports cards and anything and everything in between. Most people just like nice stuff. They don't care if it has been cleaned. In fact, they prefer it. They care that it is original & not counterfeit. I align much more closely with that viewpoint. I'd much rather everyone knows about what actually goes on and pull back the curtains than to sit there in silence and hope nobody else figures this out.

That some people choose to conflate an original item that has been cleaned with one that is counterfeit is not my concern. G1911 can continue on in his delusion as long as he chooses. The rest of us are going to continue to soak cards, push down bent-up corners, and wipe off fingerprints and smudges from the surfaces. Sorry, not sorry.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think the disappointment stems from people just now becoming aware of the fact that this stuff goes on behind the scenes. People create these romantic ideals in their heads of how something "ought" to be, and just assume or pretend that it is such. But make no mistake about it, this stuff has been going on since the beginning of the hobby. People have been soaking cards since the day they were made. It has never stopped happening and never will. As soon as someone soaks a card for the first time and realizes, "Wow! You can do that and it doesn't damage the card in any way!?" their perception changes. They tell their friends, their friends do the same, and it perpetuates. Then people also learn that soaking a card, or even just adding a little bit of moisture or humidity, can also improve things like bent corners and creases.

I think some people just tried to keep it a secret because they want to "hold all the cards" so-to-speak. They want to make money from it and they don't want competition. If too many people know how to clean cards, then there's no money in it for them. But with social media and the DIY/how-to culture of the younger generations, knowledge is power and is much more freely available. There are countless YouTube channels today that are dedicated to restoration techniques of anything and everything collectible from antique tools to box cars to casino chips to comic books to sports cards and anything and everything in between. Most people just like nice stuff. They don't care if it has been cleaned. In fact, they prefer it. They care that it is original & not counterfeit. I align much more closely with that viewpoint. I'd much rather everyone knows about what actually goes on and pull back the curtains than to sit there in silence and hope nobody else figures this out.

That some people choose to conflate an original item that has been cleaned with one that is counterfeit is not my concern. G1911 can continue on in his delusion as long as he chooses. The rest of us are going to continue to soak cards, push down bent-up corners, and wipe off fingerprints and smudges from the surfaces. Sorry, not sorry.

I think you are somewhat conflating "original" with "authentic." We may get into semantic knots on this one, but I think of original not as the opposite of counterfeit, but as a card without anything done to it. That's the sense I am using it in, anyhow. Now yeah all these things are slippery slopes and don't hold up at the far edges, I understand that. It's a Socratic method lover's dream. What if you flick something that's stuck to the surface off, what if you rub off a wax stain, blah blah blah.

Just curious btw, if you do these things yourself (and I acknowledge they are less concerning than the big three of trimming, recoloring and rebuilding), do you disclose, and if not why?

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If we have reached the point where people justify that, then I don't recognize what this hobby has become. We used to value the relative worth of cards on how well they had survived whatever they had been through, not who could do the slickest job of fixing them. What the (*&^& ever happened to originality?

Completely agree Peter.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

Did you even watch the video with the 86 Jordan?

Soak, poke at the crease with an artists blending stick, smooth with a glass tube on a stick, press between glass to dry out.
All that is right there in the video.

I can't see that as anything but pressing out a crease. Is it still visible in the video? Yes, a bit. But there's little enough that it would change the grade. If missed it would be a drastic change.

Yes, I watched the video. He does not press it out at any point. He is not applying pressure to press it down. That's the difference. When people press out a crease, they literally soak the card and the smash the shit out of it with a spoon or a roller and try to smash it flat. He's not doing that. He's getting it wet and allowing the card stock to rise naturally. It's like working on a sponge that dried with something sitting on top of it and now has a dent in it. If you get the sponge wet, it will retake it's natural shape. Card stock is similar. That's all Kurt does.