The trend in Wagner cards

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Wha? Is it rarer than the Cobb and WaJo in that set?

Hank, I don't know much about the M116 set, but I'll venture a guess that the WaJo with the "OVER 300 SUBJECTS" back is rarer.

[Rhotchkiss]

PSA and SGC pop reports for Cobb, Wagner, and Johnson. The blue is fairly rare

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

no, it's not. There is definitely a perception that honus doesn't have a ton of cards to choose from. While I believe he has many...there are not nearly as many to choose from as cobbs...there's no question about that.

Portraits have been on fire last few years as they are similar to the t206.

to me...these prices are pretty crazy on m116's. i'm not sure if they are legit or being manipulated.

My 9/10/23 post in this thread has a POP breakdown of Wagner playing days cards: at that time there were 3,576. I had a Cobb POP count I was working on but ran out of steam after over 100 variations and 10K+ cards…by comparison Joe Jackson playing days cards which I also created a total POP post on are fewer than 1,500…

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

My 9/10/23 post in this thread has a POP breakdown of Wagner playing days cards: at that time there were 3,576. I had a Cobb POP count I was working on but ran out of steam after over 100 variations and 10K+ cards…by comparison Joe Jackson playing days cards which I also created a total POP post on are fewer than 1,500…

While Wagner holds the top spot ala T206, Cobb far outweighs the Dutchman in aesthetically pleasing cards.

[Leon]

Crazy valuations!

The M116 Wags pastel must be 25K-40k+? now....in a 5 holder.
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Crazy valuations!

The M116 Wags pastel must be 25K-40k+? now....in a 5 holder.
.

More!!

[chiprop]

Doubt it. More like 25-30k

[sb1]

Older holder and soft card for the grade will hold this one back..

[DeanH3]

Total graded between PSA/SGC

169 Pastel
70 Blue

Not a very high population count, IMHO. Interesting to see where they go from here. Gotta admit, it makes it tempting to sell. The pause is realizing I may never be able to replace it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sb1

Older holder and soft card for the grade will hold this one back..

I was just being facetious, not looking to sell.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Total graded between PSA/SGC

169 Pastel
70 Blue

Not a very high population count, IMHO. Interesting to see where they go from here. Gotta admit, it makes it tempting to sell. The pause is realizing I may never be able to replace it.

Always the dilemma. Comes down to what one wants more, the card. the cash, or the cards it can now fund.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Always the dilemma. Comes down to what one wants more, the card. the cash, or the cards it can now fund.

100% agree

[Republicaninmass]

People will be kicking themselves they didn't sell, or that they did!


One Can never lose money taking a profit though

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by chiprop

Doubt it. More like 25-30k

Pastel 4.5 and 3.5 already got $30K and $23.4K respectively last year. An "A" got $13.2K.

Crazy prices compared to a few years ago, but I get the high demand for Wagner portraits.

[Cooper1927]

Seems the market keeps booming in Wagner’s - especially portraits. Any additional insights?


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cooper1927

Seems the market keeps booming in Wagner’s - especially portraits. Any additional insights?


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My insight is that I would probably sell mine now if it weren't for taxes.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My insight is that I would probably sell mine now if it weren't for taxes.

Very true, the cost of exiting in the collectible category is a big hit to the pocket.

[bandrus1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My insight is that I would probably sell mine now if it weren't for taxes.

you dont have to be a goodie goodie... you can get cash for that at the national

[Exhibitman]

The effort to purchase a Wagner nowadays is Wagnerian.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by bandrus1

you dont have to be a goodie goodie... you can get cash for that at the national

And then you have to transport and launder the cash. If you just deposit it into your account, there will be a report generated and the authorities may want to have a word, and you better have reported the income when they come knocking. "Any time you try a decent crime, you got fifty ways you're gonna f**k up. If you think of twenty-five of them, then you're a genius - and you ain't no genius." Body Heat, 1981. The algebra of deterrence at work here. Avoiding a bit of capital gains tax is not worth risking a professional license (Peter is a lawyer) and possibly one's liberty. It also isn't being a goodie-goodie. It is being a good citizen. "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society"--Oliver Wendell Holmes, Compania General De Tabacos De Filipinas v. Collector of Internal Revenue, 275 U.S. 87, 100, dissenting opinion, November 21, 1927.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

And then you have to transport and launder the cash. If you just deposit it into your account, there will be a report generated and the authorities may want to have a word, and you better have reported the income when they come knocking. "Any time you try a decent crime, you got fifty ways you're gonna f**k up. If you think of twenty-five of them, then you're a genius - and you ain't no genius." Body Heat, 1981. The algebra of deterrence at work here. Avoiding a bit of capital gains tax is not worth risking a professional license (Peter is a lawyer) and possibly one's liberty. It also isn't being a goodie-goodie. It is being a good citizen. "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society"--Oliver Wendell Holmes, Compania General De Tabacos De Filipinas v. Collector of Internal Revenue, 275 U.S. 87, 100, dissenting opinion, November 21, 1927.

Bonus pro tip:

If you're going to do something illegal, then best practices are not to post about it in a public online forum.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Bonus pro tip:

If you're going to do something illegal, then best practices are not to post about it in a public online forum.

Evading state taxes seems to be a favorite bragging point here though.

[Leon]

+1. Probably not the best covert operation.

As for the subject, I can't afford Wags any longer. I need to stick with Marquard or Rick Ferrell or someone...

Originally Posted by raulus

Bonus pro tip:

If you're going to do something illegal, then best practices are not to post about it in a public online forum.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by sb1

Very true, the cost of exiting in the collectible category is a big hit to the pocket.

To me it beats taking a loss on an item. Gladly...well maybe not gladly but willing to pay taxes on a gain over taking less than I paid. Even after taxes, we still get to keep a majority of the gain.

Signed,
Goodie goodie

[Peter_Spaeth]

To be more accurate, what I meant to say was that after taking taxes into account, the profit is not large enough to entice me to sell. As Lorewalker says, it wouldn't really be a hit to the pocket, it would still be a nice gain.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To be more accurate, what I meant to say was that after taking taxes into account, the profit is not large enough to entice me to sell. As Lorewalker says, it wouldn't really be a hit to the pocket, it would still be a nice gain.

I know what you mean. That's what my dad told me when I asked if he was going to sell Tesla when it was at 1200.

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[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Leon

+1. Probably not the best covert operation.

As for the subject, I can't afford Wags any longer. I need to stick with Marquard or Rick Ferrell or someone...

My budget is more Highpockets Kelly or maybe Harold Baines.

[Republicaninmass]

Collecting

Deep Pockets Kelly, with Short Arms McGee

[Cooper1927]

Any thoughts 3 months later.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cooper1927

Any thoughts 3 months later.


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I was wondering the same. Surely prices on these have not sustained the levels they were selling at months ago, or have they? Anyone who follows this closely know?

[sb1]

The Blue M116 AUT Trimmed and with glue on back, brought over $10k in REA last night...

[Rhotchkiss]

As you know, I sold a bunch of stuff in memory lane's spring auction, including 12 Wagner cards (not including team cards). Before the auction (like sometime in March), an auction employee and I sat down and created a low, mid, and high value for every card consigned.

The 12 Wagner cards finished 14.16% above the low value, 2.83% below the mid value, and 15.41% below the high value. Based on this, it appears that Wagner cards are generally still holding value... maybe a slight decline.

As an aside, the 4 cards that beat the high value for the card were:
E90-1 Throwing PSA 2
Ju Ju Drum SGC 1.5
D322 Tip Top PSA 1.5
American League Publishing Post Card PSA 2

The 4 cards that did not obtain the low value were:
E101 Throwing PSA 2
E92 Dockman Throwing PSA 2
PC796 SGC 5.54
E106 Batting SGC 3

5 of the 12 exceeded the Mid Value and 7 of the 12 did not exceed the mid value

Note - I also sold 8 Ty Cobb Cards in that auction and only 2 of them exceeded their low valuation with many finishing well below the low value. Also, the Cobb-Wagner Novelty Cutlery (PSA 1) I sold (not included in any of the above), finished above the low value but slightly below the mid value.

This, I take to mean that Cobb prices have certainly cooled, much more so than Wagner

[Touch'EmAll]

An original Honus Wagner photo, which was used to create the T206 card, just sold at auction for $ 117,500. - It sold 5 years ago for $ 65.k. Wagner stuff seemingly still doing quite well.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

An original Honus Wagner photo, which was used to create the T206 card, just sold at auction for $ 117,500. - It sold 5 years ago for $ 65.k. Wagner stuff seemingly still doing quite well.

While that is a decent profit, I don't know if a sale of just over $100K for a picture of its importance is all that impressive. The auction house had estimated $100K to $300K.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

While that is a decent profit, I don't know if a sale of just over $100K for a picture of its importance is all that impressive. The auction house had estimated $100K to $300K.

id have expected exponentially more.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

id have expected exponentially more.

Heavy restoration and re-mounting puts that in a lesser catagory...look closely at the image and read the description, its not a great example.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Evading state taxes seems to be a favorite bragging point here though.

Thought it was using PPP funds to buy a 52 mantle?

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

Heavy restoration and re-mounting puts that in a lesser catagory...look closely at the image and read the description, its not a great example.

I wondered if anyone else looked at the quality and amount of restoration. The attempt at redoing the shading under his nose looks like some dirty runny snot coming out.



ETA: I can understand someone going after this, not knowing when another might become available...or maybe since it maybe did fall below expected price, would be something they could not otherwise afford. It's clearly special, but just not a great restoration. Would be a treat to see an image before any work was done.

.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

I wondered if anyone else looked at the quality and amount of restoration. The attempt at redoing the shading under his nose looks like some dirty runny snot coming out.





.

I would have been all over this but for the restoration. So yes.

[Schlesinj]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

An original Honus Wagner photo, which was used to create the T206 card, just sold at auction for $ 117,500. - It sold 5 years ago for $ 65.k. Wagner stuff seemingly still doing quite well.

Can someone put a link?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

Can someone put a link?

https://huntauctions.com/live/imagev...=145&lot_qual=

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Pastel 4.5 and 3.5 already got $30K and $23.4K respectively last year. An "A" got $13.2K.

Crazy prices compared to a few years ago, but I get the high demand for Wagner portraits.

32K for a PSA 7. How's our trend doing now?
https://memorylaneinc.com/site/bids/...e?itemid=83662

[brianp-beme]

I don't track high value cards...is $72,000 for an ultra-scarce M131 Baltimore News Newsboy Wagner in VG considered high, low, about right, or who the heck knows?

https://memorylaneinc.com/site/bids/...e?itemid=83673


Brian

[pawpawdiv9]

Saw preview for Goldin elite
The very rare Reccius Wagner is in auction
Open bid 200k

And to note- also Cobb/ Cobb back in auction as well

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

32K for a PSA 7. How's our trend doing now?
https://memorylaneinc.com/site/bids/...e?itemid=83662

Wait for the excuses. Probably something about centering, and over-grading.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by raulus

Wait for the excuses. Probably something about centering, and over-grading.

Saw someone post on here who was long this issue stating anything under 85K for a 5.5 was stealing it.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I don't track high value cards...is $72,000 for an ultra-scarce M131 Baltimore News Newsboy Wagner in VG considered high, low, about right, or who the heck knows?

https://memorylaneinc.com/site/bids/...e?itemid=83673


Brian

Was my card. Strong price for the M131 Wagner. Otherwise, I felt my other Wagner (and Cobb and Ruth) items, including the M116 Pastel PSA 7, went on the lower end. Things have definitely cooled.

[e107collector]

Buying cards at these lofty levels is extremely risky. I think we might see some big variances in prices in these upcoming auctions. Just my two cents.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by e107collector

Buying cards at these lofty levels is extremely risky. I think we might see some big variances in prices in these upcoming auctions. Just my two cents.

There was a new money collector buying up the E Wagners during the Wagner run up, I think he had 9 at one point. It doesn't take much to move the pre war market up or down. A few collectors in, a few collectors out, it's a thin market in the >50K card world.

[Kco]

Originally Posted by bandrus1

you dont have to be a goodie goodie... you can get cash for that at the national

1. if you have good record keeping you will pay only on profit which is pocketed.
2. Did you sell other items for a loss at any point to offset any profit gain?
3. If used to trade up or into something bigger you can get around capital gains altogrether if you don't take an outright cash out, depending on how you complete the transaction.

For example if you consign it to an AH, and utilize the final amount it sells for as a credit towards another purchase on that auction, you will not have to pay taxex on the sale.