Is it ethical to alter cards and sell them without disclosure?

CardPadre · #1 03-20-2024, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Facilitypro

If you define "altering" as trimming/pressing/recoloring, then I think that is not acceptable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glchen

As other have said, there are many definitions of alterations in the hobby. Here are a few that I can think of:

Soaking a card glued onto something else like a scrapbook: Acceptable
Soaking and pressing a card to remove wrinkles: Not Acceptable

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Yeah, I agree with soaking. I don't see the alteration aspect of soaking a card.

If you've soaked a card....then you've pressed a card. Once you've soaked it, it almost never wants to be perfectly flat anymore. You have to press it into and continue to hold the shape you desire with pressure while it dries.

Snowman · #2 03-20-2024, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CardPadre

If you've soaked a card....then you've pressed a card. Once you've soaked it, it almost never wants to be perfectly flat anymore. You have to press it into and continue to hold the shape you desire with pressure while it dries.

This is not when people mean when they talk about someone "pressing" a card. There are people here who think that there's an army of card doctors that run around soaking cards and then squishing the hell out of them with a mechanical press in an effort to expand their size so that they can then trim them down.

Personally, I think this is pretty funny. Believe it or not, this is actually a myth. It's not a thing.

Another thing people refer to as pressing is smashing out creases with a spoon. This actually is a thing and it damages cards. This IS an alteration, and it's something I won't do. It is perhaps worth mentioning that this is also something Kurt does not do either. This will get your cards flagged as altered stock by PSA and SGC. Don't do it.

Putting a book on top of a card while it dries to ensure it dries flat is not what is meant by "pressing" a card.

CardPadre · #3 03-20-2024, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is not when people mean when they talk about someone "pressing" a card. There are people here who think that there's an army of card doctors that run around soaking cards and then squishing the hell out of them with a mechanical press in an effort to expand their size so that they can then trim them down.

Personally, I think this is pretty funny. Believe it or not, this is actually a myth. It's not a thing.

Another thing people refer to as pressing is smashing out creases with a spoon. This actually is a thing and it damages cards. This IS an alteration, and it's something I won't do. It is perhaps worth mentioning that this is also something Kurt does not do either. This will get your cards flagged as altered stock by PSA and SGC. Don't do it.

Putting a book on top of a card while it dries to ensure it dries flat is not what is meant by "pressing" a card.

It's the pressing flat of corners or wrinkles that I think most here think of when "pressing" is mentioned. I don't think your definition is the only one. Most don't really consider smashing a card to increase the size and then trim some excess as being any kind of rampant problem...I've never seen anyone here particularly worried about that.

But a soaked card now has bends if you don't intervene and you are pressing those bends out to make it seem "normal" again.

Spoon smashing for a crease/wrinkle probably compresses the card stock and Kurt does not do that, I don't believe. But essentially (and a simplified way of thinking of it) he "soaks" the area that is creased or wrinkled and massages it flat for drying.

Snowman · #4 03-20-2024, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CardPadre

But a soaked card now has bends if you don't intervene and you are pressing those bends out to make it seem "normal" again.

Soaking a card does not "cause bends". All paper stock is dried flat. That's how paper is made. If you soak a card and just let it sit there to dry out in the open air, one side will evaporate more quickly than the other and that will cause the paper stock to bend. Drying it slowly and holding it flat while it dries ensures that it remains flat. A soaked card is a perfectly flat card. No "pressing" is necessary. You can dry a card flat with something that only weighs a few ounces.

CardPadre · #5 03-20-2024, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Soaking a card does not "cause bends". All paper stock is dried flat. That's how paper is made. If you soak a card and just let it sit there to dry out in the open air, one side will evaporate more quickly than the other and that will cause the paper stock to bend. Drying it slowly and holding it flat while it dries ensures that it remains flat. A soaked card is a perfectly flat card. No "pressing" is necessary. You can dry a card flat with something that only weighs a few ounces.

And one side will absorb water more quickly than the other when you soak...creating a bending. More subtle than the drying bend, but doesn't just work one way.

Johnny630 · #6 03-20-2024, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is not when people mean when they talk about someone "pressing" a card. There are people here who think that there's an army of card doctors that run around soaking cards and then squishing the hell out of them with a mechanical press in an effort to expand their size so that they can then trim them down.

Personally, I think this is pretty funny. Believe it or not, this is actually a myth. It's not a thing.

Another thing people refer to as pressing is smashing out creases with a spoon. This actually is a thing and it damages cards. This IS an alteration, and it's something I won't do. It is perhaps worth mentioning that this is also something Kurt does not do either. This will get your cards flagged as altered stock by PSA and SGC. Don't do it.

Putting a book on top of a card while it dries to ensure it dries flat is not what is meant by "pressing" a card.

Correct pressing and soaking a card into a flat state alters the thin/thickness of the card stock it will get rejected 9/10 times. Might have a chance with scg. Also spooing is comical too, can spot that as it removes the gloss from the card and leaves a shiny dull where the person attempted it. Also, sometimes leaves divots in the Cards. It’s amazing what people think/do to Cards.

raulus · #7 03-20-2024, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Another thing people refer to as pressing is smashing out creases with a spoon. This actually is a thing and it damages cards. This IS an alteration, and it's something I won't do. It is perhaps worth mentioning that this is also something Kurt does not do either. This will get your cards flagged as altered stock by PSA and SGC. Don't do it.

Point of clarification - I thought there was a video out there with Kurt working a crease. He'd spray his magic juice on it, and then sort of press it or rub it with some plastic sheet. Lather, rinse, repeat, until it got to the point where the crease was less pronounced.

Thought it was on that 87 Fleer Jordan...

But maybe this is different than smashing out creases with a spoon?

gunboat82 · #8 03-20-2024, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Point of clarification - I thought there was a video out there with Kurt working a crease. He'd spray his magic juice on it, and then sort of press it or rub it with some plastic sheet. Lather, rinse, repeat, until it got to the point where the crease was less pronounced.

Thought it was on that 87 Fleer Jordan...

But maybe this is different than smashing out creases with a spoon?

Kurt used a tortillon to massage the wrinkle. Someone in the pro-doctoring camp would say that's fine as long you say "massage" instead of "smash," and "tortillon" instead of "spoon."

Peter_Spaeth · #9 03-20-2024, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Kurt used a tortillon to massage the wrinkle. Someone in the pro-doctoring camp would say that's fine as long you say "massage" instead of "smash," and "tortillon" instead of "spoon."

Kurt would vote 3, because nothing he does is altering cards.

Lorewalker · #10 03-20-2024, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kurt would vote 3, because nothing he does is altering cards.

Kurt needs to show us what he does to the cards when the camera is not rolling. If you watch his videos you will see at the times he stops the video and then comes back that the clamps and paper are in different positions. Suggests he is taking the cards out and then working his magic. I have a very hard time believing a wrinkle and dents come out of cards when you spray them with his secret sauce and just let them dry.

Of course the island of defenders (same people who likely defend PWCC's actions) will say otherwise.

philliesfan · #11 03-21-2024, 07:45 AM

OK here are two more ethical or not questions like all the other examples in this thread....
If you sent a card to PSA and Beckett and both times it came back as trimmed and a third time sent to SGC and gets a numeric grade of 6, 7 whatever, would you have to disclose the two trimmed results when selling the SGC card?

OR, if you cracked out a PSA 4 and resubmitted and got a 7 the second time , would you need to disclose that it was previously a PSA 4 and now its a 7?

raulus · #12 03-20-2024, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Kurt used a tortillon to massage the wrinkle. Someone in the pro-doctoring camp would say that's fine as long you say "massage" instead of "smash," and "tortillon" instead of "spoon."

See? Precisely why we need more context.

Full disclosure: Previous to today, I had never heard of a tortillon, although I would have expected that if prepared correctly, they could be succulent.

Snowman · #13 03-20-2024, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Kurt used a tortillon to massage the wrinkle. Someone in the pro-doctoring camp would say that's fine as long you say "massage" instead of "smash," and "tortillon" instead of "spoon."

You say that as if there is no difference between someone gently dabbing water onto a card with a soft, rolled up, wet piece of paper vs smashing the shit out of it with a piece of metal. You're free to disagree with both techniques, but let's not pretend that the two are equivalent.

gunboat82 · #14 03-20-2024, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

You say that as if there is no difference between someone gently dabbing water onto a card with a soft, rolled up, wet piece of paper vs smashing the shit out of it with a piece of metal. You're free to disagree with both techniques, but let's not pretend that the two are equivalent.

And you say "water" as if Kurt uses "water." If Kurt is peddling regular ol' distilled H20 as his proprietary "Card Care" "polish and spray" solution, then that's a separate conversation.

Peter_Spaeth · #15 03-20-2024, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunboat82

And you say "water" as if Kurt uses "water." If Kurt is peddling regular ol' distilled H20 as his proprietary "Card Care" "polish and spray" solution, then that's a separate conversation.

Ask Kurt if he's willing to drink it.

Snowman · #16 03-20-2024, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunboat82

And you say "water" as if Kurt uses "water." If Kurt is peddling regular ol' distilled H20 as his proprietary "Card Care" "polish and spray" solution, then that's a separate conversation.

I don't know what he uses in his card spray. But if it doesn't leave any residue behind and it doesn't damage the card, then it doesn't alter the cards.

philliesfan · #17 03-20-2024, 05:10 PM

As other have said, there are many definitions of alterations in the hobby. Here are a few that I can think of:

Soaking a card glued onto something else like a scrapbook: Acceptable
Soaking and pressing a card to remove wrinkles: Not Acceptable
Trimming a hand cut card such as a strip card: Acceptable
Trimming an oversized factory cut card: Not Acceptable
Erasing a pencil mark from a card using a standard eraser: Maybe?
Erasing a pen/ink mark from a card using chemicals: Not Acceptable
Adding color to a card: Not Acceptable
Rebuilding corners: Not Acceptable
Re-backing a skinned card: Not Acceptable

Glchen, You forgot a common one.......Wiping off an wax/gum stain.

View Poll Results: Is it ethical to alter and sell cards without disclosing that they were altered?
Yes, it is perfectly acceptable and ethical to sell an altered without disclosing this to the buyer	5	4.24%
No, it is unethical to not disclose alterations the alterations	34	28.81%
No, it is unethical to not disclose the alterations, and it is fraud to do so	79	66.95%
Voters: 118. You may not vote on this poll

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