Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

Al C.risafulli · #1 03-21-2024, 10:38 PM

Quote:

You mean like eBay, Probstein, Heritage (you do know they have their own in-house card doctors, right?), Goldin, REA, Mile High, LotG, and literally everyone else?

Please clarify what you mean with this sentence.

Thanks,
-Al

perezfan · #2 03-21-2024, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Please clarify what you mean with this sentence.

Thanks,
-Al

He has no idea what he means with defamatory statements like these... just blowing smoke as usual. The amount of credence that people give him here is beyond me.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 03-21-2024, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

He has no idea what he means with defamatory statements like these... just blowing smoke as usual. The amount of credence that people give him here is beyond me.

Other than the Heritage comment, I just took him to mean that altered cards are everywhere and nobody can stop it completely, so to suggest it is/was only PWCC with the problem is not accurate.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #4 03-21-2024, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Other than the Heritage comment, I just took him to mean that altered cards are everywhere and nobody can stop it completely, so to suggest it is/was only PWCC with the problem is not accurate.

Maybe that's what he meant, but it sure seems like an accusation. Of course the irony is he sees nothing wrong with it so he's "accusing" people of doing nothing wrong, even though it's something...

Snowman, please address this because Al deserves better.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 03-21-2024, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Maybe that's what he meant, but it sure seems like an accusation. Of course the irony is he sees nothing wrong with it so he's "accusing" people of doing nothing wrong, even though it's something...

Snowman, please address this because Al deserves better.

Ebay was the first one listed. Surely he wasn't accusing ebay of doctoring cards. I think he's just saying, in the worlds of the old Converse commercial, they're everywhere. But let's see if he comes back and clarifies.

Snowman · #6 03-22-2024, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Other than the Heritage comment, I just took him to mean that altered cards are everywhere and nobody can stop it completely, so to suggest it is/was only PWCC with the problem is not accurate.

Yes, this is precisely what I meant. No auction house is immune to consigners sending them altered cards. They're literally everywhere. There's just no way around it.

I was not saying that ebay or Al (or anyone on his team) is altering cards.

The only auction house I claimed was doing anything to the cards themselves was Heritage, because I know with absolute certainty that they regularly clean cards before submitting them for grading. I am not, however, accusing them of altering cards. I have no evidence that they've ever done so, and I don't believe that they would (again, cleaning is not altering). All I know for sure is that they clean them and make minor improvements by soaking them.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 03-22-2024, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, this is precisely what I meant. No auction house is immune to consigners sending them altered cards. They're literally everywhere. There's just no way around it.

I was not saying that ebay or Al (or anyone on his team) is altering cards.

The only auction house I claimed was doing anything to the cards themselves was Heritage, because I know with absolute certainty that they regularly clean cards before submitting them for grading. I am not, however, accusing them of altering cards. I have no evidence that they've ever done so, and I don't believe that they would (again, cleaning is not altering). All I know for sure is that they clean them and make minor improvements by soaking them.

So Heritage has "in-house card doctors" but they don't alter cards? That one, I don't follow?

Snowman · #8 03-22-2024, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So Heritage has "in-house card doctors" but they don't alter cards? That one, I don't follow?

They clean cards and remove stains. They don't, at least to my knowledge, trim, recolor, or rebuild corners or anything like that.

We're just quibbling over our differences of the definition of "altered". I am using the definition that the grading companies use in practice, which is that cleaned cards and soaked cards are acceptable and will receive numeric grades if they are cleaned properly. They all allow cleaned cards. Just look at the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of cards with white borders and beat-to-hell corners and other obvious significant surface wear that are graded as numeric. Those graders aren't stupid. You can't get a beat-up-looking card with white borders without cleaning it. Yet, they allow it. Every time. What they don't allow is a card with some soap scum on it or one that looks like it lost a 12-round title fight with a jug of Clorox.

Lorewalker · #9 03-22-2024, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

They clean cards and remove stains. They don't, at least to my knowledge, trim, recolor, or rebuild corners or anything like that.

We're just quibbling over our differences of the definition of "altered". I am using the definition that the grading companies use in practice, which is that cleaned cards and soaked cards are acceptable and will receive numeric grades if they are cleaned properly. They all allow cleaned cards. Just look at the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of cards with white borders and beat-to-hell corners and other obvious significant surface wear that are graded as numeric. Those graders aren't stupid. You can't get a beat-up-looking card with white borders without cleaning it. Yet, they allow it. Every time. What they don't allow is a card with some soap scum on it or one that looks like it lost a 12-round title fight with a jug of Clorox.

I don't think they actually allow it anymore than they allow trimmed, recolored, creased removed, rebuilt cards to pass grading. If the job is done well enough or the work done is not actually detectable, they might not catch it or maybe it is that they catch it almost 100% of time except for submitters who have those privileges.

Unless the grading companies are complicit in that they see the work done and look the other way and slap a number on the card, responsibility is with the submitter (assuming he/she did the work) or the person submitting the card for the person who did the work. Not the cops' fault is they do not stop a robbery in progress.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 03-22-2024, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

They clean cards and remove stains. They don't, at least to my knowledge, trim, recolor, or rebuild corners or anything like that.

We're just quibbling over our differences of the definition of "altered". I am using the definition that the grading companies use in practice, which is that cleaned cards and soaked cards are acceptable and will receive numeric grades if they are cleaned properly. They all allow cleaned cards. Just look at the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of cards with white borders and beat-to-hell corners and other obvious significant surface wear that are graded as numeric. Those graders aren't stupid. You can't get a beat-up-looking card with white borders without cleaning it. Yet, they allow it. Every time. What they don't allow is a card with some soap scum on it or one that looks like it lost a 12-round title fight with a jug of Clorox.

That's not an answer to my question. Why are you calling them "card doctors" if you don't think they're doctoring cards?

JollyElm · #11 03-22-2024, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

He has no idea what he means with defamatory statements like these... just blowing smoke as usual. The amount of credence that people give him here is beyond me.

Apparently, posting my little old humorous 'Collectorism' from years ago in response to someone's 'Cardfax' post (because of the obvious similarity) triggered him. So out of character!!

Snowman · #12 03-22-2024, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Apparently, posting my little old humorous 'Collectorism' from years ago in response to someone's 'Cardfax' post (because of the obvious similarity) triggered him. So out of character!!

Triggered?

I made a simple comment that shouldn't have been difficult to decode. You said something about PWCC selling altered cards and I was merely pointing out the fact that no auction house is immune from this.

4815162342 · #13 03-22-2024, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Triggered?

I made a simple comment that shouldn't have been difficult to decode. You said something about PWCC selling altered cards and I was merely pointing out the fact that no auction house is immune from this.

When I read it last night, it definitely sounded you were replying to �other notorious card doctors� with a list of auction houses as examples. Peter and Al were very nice to allow you to clarify.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Snowman · #14 03-22-2024, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4815162342

When I read it last night, it definitely sounded you were replying to �other notorious card doctors� with a list of auction houses as examples. Peter and Al were very nice to allow you to clarify.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The post I was responding to implied that PWCC was a notorious "card doctor" because doctored cards were regularly sold on their platform. My point was that none of them are immune. It's just part of the territory if you're an auction house. It's like the "shill-bidding" accusations against PWCC. It's ridiculous. Any consignment company that sells on eBay has "individuals associated with them" who were found to be shill bidding. And every auction house deals with this problem. Again, it just comes with the turf.

I thought it should have been obvious when I listed eBay first on my list. Surely, nobody thought that I was accusing eBay employees of doctoring cards.

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