CGC M116 "Proof" Grading

notfast · #1 03-30-2024, 08:05 AM

I wonder if CGC would slab these type of cards as ad/banner cutouts if asked.

packs · #2 03-30-2024, 10:04 AM

I've poked around and found several old auctions for advertisements similar to this one. They were all printed in black and white and the players are identified as well:

https://goldinauctions.com/lot-16007.aspx

I've seen window advertising like this Goudey display as well. Full color cards but again the players are identified:

https://catalog.scpauctions.com/Scar...-LOT52584.aspx

Cracker Jack original advertisement also identifies the players:

https://www.milehighcardco.com/spect...-lot44519.aspx

My opinion is that these are unfinished cards that were cut from original sheets. Whether that makes them proofs or something else in between, I do think that is the most likely origin of them. The lack of player name and team name indicates that to me.

brooklynbotter · #3 03-30-2024, 10:47 AM

I contacted their customer service trying to figure that out. I don't think there is more evidence for the ad cutout theory than the "proof"/trial run, so it would be weird in my opinion if they did.

CGC is also responsible for ebay's authenticity guarantee. I don't intend to sell mine, but would these get rejected if sold on ebay?

Quote:

Originally Posted by notfast

I wonder if CGC would slab these type of cards as ad/banner cutouts if asked.

G1911 · #4 03-30-2024, 01:28 PM

There is a 0% chance these are proofs. They have none of the characteristics of a proof and all the characteristics of being cut from an ad, display piece, or similar. People just like to claim proofs for any oddity they have as a proof is more desirable and valuable than a piece cut from an advertisement or something else. A thinner stock is indicative of a cut.

A proof card is often impossible to tell from an a card on an unfinished sheet. Large crosshairs (if you look very closely, you can see small crosshairs or remnants on a lot of old cards, like much of T218-1) are a clear indica of a proof, but only for proofs from certain alignment stages. There are other proofs that don't have them, but separating these from cards made during general production on a sheet that was unfinished and abandoned are often difficult to separate. For example, the below T220 sheet is a proof stage sheet. We know this from the office backstamp on the reverse, the misspelling in a card that was never issued that way, and is also indicated by the layout with the 2 super short prints having more cards here than are known to exist otherwise. Proofs are typically on the correct stock.

Cards from unfinished sheets often have missing elements, and/or are handcut. A lot of upside down wrong backs are in this category, missing color passes (for the ones that aren't frauds with colors removed by alteration or light), and other defects. Some of these cards bearing a subset of characteristics are probably actually from the proofing stage as not all proofing stages bear direct indica of that stage.

Cards cut from an advertising piece, like a poster or a banner or a store display often exhibit different formatting, are usually on a different and thinner stock, and are often found together in a quantity but otherwise extremely scarce for many issues (album cuts are much more common). Attached are some T68 examples and T96 examples, the only ones known. The T68's feature some design changes. The source pieces varied heavily, cards in advertising are not limited to the biggest name subjects and some were large and featured a large number of cards or even all of them.

These M116's are not proofs whatsoever and a grader is 100% right to reject them as such. I don't see why they couldn't be graded A and noted to be ad cuts.

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