Kurt's Card Care

Peter_Spaeth · #1 04-17-2024, 01:32 PM

To the extent you're defending Kurt's and others' use of chemical potions to improve the appearance of cards, and submitting and/or selling them without disclosure, I would say that's shady.

BioCRN · #2 04-17-2024, 01:40 PM

As a chemical-using science person for a living type dude, doctoring cards with a "secret recipe" is a big deal, VERY especially after seeing that interview and seeing he has very little idea how to approach making his "secret recipe" rather than trial and error.

I suspect, though I say this with no tips or close knowledge, that propylene glycol may be part of the recipe. It helps things like cardboard (for instance) take up water deeper into and between cells and hold onto it better. It also won't ruin the "plastic" as he calls the card gloss.

It's also quite sticky and doesn't tend to precipitate out of whatever it's applied to, meaning when the water and other chemicals are gone, a residue hangs around that could make the situation worse over time.

You can share "active ingredients" without giving ratios.

But let's be real. Most people using stuff like this are doing it for the quick flip and that's someone else's problem 5-10-20+ years from now.

This is just an example of an unintended consequence of using a chemical. I'm slightly alarmed that he talked about his discovery process as a "throwing things at the problem" process rather than approaching it with the properties of the chemical(s) being used.

Lucas00 · #3 04-17-2024, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BioCRN

But let's be real. Most people using stuff like this are doing it for the quick flip and that's someone else's problem 5-10-20+ years from now.

This exactly. Just like how card trimming was done by people in the 90s and 2000s that was seldom caught (compared to now). They made their millions and got away with it. Now people with their old label 9s and 10s are finding out the cards are likely trimmed decades later.

The new MO is low grade high eye appeal stained and lightly wrinkled cards that can be altered with chemicals for +2-3 or more grade bumps. Which is very unfortunate as that's many real collectors sweet spots in terms of price to quality ratio. They will likely now start being outbid by what can only be dubbed as "Juicers". Really sucks.

Hopefully there's some kind of chemical testing that can be implemented into tpgs process. Though that's probably expensive and time consuming so I really doubt it.

Lorewalker · #4 04-17-2024, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To the extent you're defending Kurt's and others' use of chemical potions to improve the appearance of cards, and submitting and/or selling them without disclosure, I would say that's shady.

Not sure anyone here defended PWCC more often and with more fervor than Travis. So his defense of Kurt or any other person in the hobby that deals in questionable practices seems fitting.

And I have no issues with his supporting businesses like that but he too practices cleaning cards and has said he has cleaned thousands of them yet I have seen his eBay graded listings and either of those thousands of cards he has cleaned none are those he has listed or sold or...he is not disclosing, which is the issue I have.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 04-17-2024, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Not sure anyone here defended PWCC more often and with more fervor than Travis. So his defense of Kurt or any other person in the hobby that deals in questionable practices seems fitting.

And I have no issues with his supporting businesses like that but he too practices cleaning cards and has said he has cleaned thousands of them yet I have seen his eBay graded listings and either of those thousands of cards he has cleaned none are those he has listed or sold or...he is not disclosing, which is the issue I have.

He has said he doesn't disclose because there is nothing to disclose.

G1911 · #6 04-17-2024, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He has said he doesn't disclose because there is nothing to disclose.

A claim some might observe is shady, deceptive, and disingenuous.

Lorewalker · #7 04-17-2024, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He has said he doesn't disclose because there is nothing to disclose.

That is convenient, self-serving and the mere fact he avoids disclosing is the reason he should. If you have nothing to hide then don't hide.

Reminds me of when he had his 52 Topps Mantle SGC Auth Altered listed that he won from PWCC. PWCC disclosed that the alteration was a trim job on the bottom edge--a trim job that was pretty evident even with the card int he holder. When Travis listed it on eBay he went out of his way in his description to describe how much time and effort an examination he did of the card and concluded SGC was wrong and the card was not altered.

When Brent is more forthcoming than Travis that should tell ya something. And if Travis was so sure his assessment was more accurate than SGC why not break out the card and submit it? The upside on a mistakenly assessed 52 Topps #311 that would be a 7 or higher being wrongfully trapped in an AA holder is worth a few submission attempts. I will tell you why he did not break it out and resubmit it. Once he were to do that it would be harder or impossible to post his misrepresentation that the card is not altered.

G1911 · #8 04-17-2024, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

That is convenient, self-serving and the mere fact he avoids disclosing is the reason he should. If you have nothing to hide then don't hide.

Reminds me of when he had his 52 Topps Mantle SGC Auth Altered listed that he won from PWCC. PWCC disclosed that the alteration was a trim job on the bottom edge--a trim job that was pretty evident even with the card int he holder. When Travis listed it on eBay he went out of his way in his description to describe how much time and effort an examination he did of the card and concluded SGC was wrong and the card was not altered.

When Brent is more forthcoming than Travis that should tell ya something. And if Travis was so sure his assessment was more accurate than SGC why not break out the card and submit it? The upside on a mistakenly assessed 52 Topps #311 that would be a 7 or higher being wrongfully trapped in an AA holder is worth a few submission attempts. I will tell you why he did not break it out and resubmit it. Once he were to do that it would be harder or impossible to post his misrepresentation that the card is not altered.

I am shocked. I can't believe it. The Snowman, misrepresenting cards and trying to rip people off when he isn't busy shilling for other fraudsters? Say it ain't so!

Have a link to this one or a pic of the card?

Snowman · #9 04-18-2024, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I am shocked. I can't believe it. The Snowman, misrepresenting cards and trying to rip people off when he isn't busy shilling for other fraudsters? Say it ain't so!

Have a link to this one or a pic of the card?

I no longer own the card. But here is a scan of it. It's one of the nicest 52 Mantles I've ever seen, in any grade.

Snowman · #10 04-18-2024, 01:53 AM

I'm really getting sick of all the bullshit accusations and misquoting of things I never said. I'm done engaging with you guys on this topic. Your ignorant viewpoints are tired and outdated. Have fun screaming at clouds. I'll be over here cleaning my cards and enjoying them.

Perhaps I'll turn my attention instead to becoming a content creator where I teach people how to safely and properly clean vintage cards. Maybe you can all learn something (well, then again, I doubt it). Maybe I'll even set up at shows and grab a table right next to PSA and SGC and offer to clean your cards right there on the spot before you submit them for grading. It'll be fun. See you on the other side. Toodle-oo.

Snowman · #11 04-18-2024, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

That is convenient, self-serving and the mere fact he avoids disclosing is the reason he should. If you have nothing to hide then don't hide.

Reminds me of when he had his 52 Topps Mantle SGC Auth Altered listed that he won from PWCC. PWCC disclosed that the alteration was a trim job on the bottom edge--a trim job that was pretty evident even with the card int he holder. When Travis listed it on eBay he went out of his way in his description to describe how much time and effort an examination he did of the card and concluded SGC was wrong and the card was not altered.

When Brent is more forthcoming than Travis that should tell ya something. And if Travis was so sure his assessment was more accurate than SGC why not break out the card and submit it? The upside on a mistakenly assessed 52 Topps #311 that would be a 7 or higher being wrongfully trapped in an AA holder is worth a few submission attempts. I will tell you why he did not break it out and resubmit it. Once he were to do that it would be harder or impossible to post his misrepresentation that the card is not altered.

You are so full of shit. I said I was done responding to you, but I have to respond to your bullshit accusation. This is just a flat-out lie. At no point did PWCC ever inform me that it was trimmed, let alone that it was trimmed on any specific edge. They never said anything at all about the card. The card is in an "Authentic" holder, not an "Authentic Altered" holder, as you claim above. I bought it as a fixed-price listing on eBay. It had no details whatsoever written about the card in the description. All it said was "SGC Authentic" in the title. Seller was asking $X, I offered $Y, seller accepted. After it arrived, I thoroughly examined the card myself and provided an honest assessment of its condition. The edges show no evidence of trimming whatsoever. They are perfectly consistent with what you'd expect to see from a 52 Topps card (a set I know very well). The toning and chipping are perfectly consistent with a factory cut. The reason the card was not given a numeric grade is because the top edge slopes from left to right. It is just barely out of square (a very common factory miscut for 52 Topps). If this were any other card from that set besides the Mantle, it probably would have received a numeric grade. And I think there is a decent chance that it shows up again some day in a numeric holder.

gunboat82 · #12 04-18-2024, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

You are so full of shit. I said I was done responding to you, but I have to respond to your bullshit accusation. This is just a flat-out lie. At no point did PWCC ever inform me that it was trimmed, let alone that it was trimmed on any specific edge. They never said anything at all about the card. The card is in an "Authentic" holder, not an "Authentic Altered" holder, as you claim above.

Is this the same card?

https://sales-history.pwccmarketplac...MONTHLY2077364

If so, here's the PWCC description:

Quote:

An absolutely stunning '52 Mantle which generally shows NRMT qualities throughout. Beautifully preserved throughout with fresh surfaces and four mostly square corners. Lightly trimmed along the bottom edge, though it takes a trained eye to see it and even then the overall presentation remains largely world class. If you've been waiting for a some what affordable example of this iconic card, yet can't stand the attributes of a low grade, look no further. Part of an extensive run of '52 Topps examples on the market this month. Nearly the entire set is represented here, mostly in mid-grade condition. One of over 15,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 9th Auction of 2019. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots.

G1911 · #13 04-18-2024, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Is this the same card?

https://sales-history.pwccmarketplac...MONTHLY2077364

If so, here's the PWCC description:

It can�t be, that would make Scamman a liar for the 10,000th time if it is

Snowman · #14 04-18-2024, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Is this the same card?

https://sales-history.pwccmarketplac...MONTHLY2077364

If so, here's the PWCC description:

That may be the same card, but that's not the listing I purchased it from. That sale is from 2019. I bought the card in July 2021 on eBay from a PWCC Vault. The listing I won said nothing at all about the card.

Regardless, whoever said that it was trimmed on the bottom edge in whatever listing this is from is an idiot. Here's a close-up pic of the bottom edge (not that it would matter here, as you guys probably have no idea what you're looking at anyhow, but this is NOT what a trimmed edge looks like).

Lorewalker · #15 04-18-2024, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

You are so full of shit. I said I was done responding to you, but I have to respond to your bullshit accusation. This is just a flat-out lie. At no point did PWCC ever inform me that it was trimmed, let alone that it was trimmed on any specific edge. They never said anything at all about the card. The card is in an "Authentic" holder, not an "Authentic Altered" holder, as you claim above. I bought it as a fixed-price listing on eBay. It had no details whatsoever written about the card in the description. All it said was "SGC Authentic" in the title. Seller was asking $X, I offered $Y, seller accepted. After it arrived, I thoroughly examined the card myself and provided an honest assessment of its condition. The edges show no evidence of trimming whatsoever. They are perfectly consistent with what you'd expect to see from a 52 Topps card (a set I know very well). The toning and chipping are perfectly consistent with a factory cut. The reason the card was not given a numeric grade is because the top edge slopes from left to right. It is just barely out of square (a very common factory miscut for 52 Topps). If this were any other card from that set besides the Mantle, it probably would have received a numeric grade. And I think there is a decent chance that it shows up again some day in a numeric holder.

All I know is that when I saw the card listed under your id, did not know at the time it was your id, I went to look up the history on it. I immediately found the listing that it tied to PWCC and saw the description.

I have never bought a card from PWCC's vault so I have no idea if they use descriptions or not. Gonna give ya that one. If you got it in a fixed price listing from the vault with no description, I would imagine if you were paying that much ya might want to do the same basic 2 minute search that I did and see the history but maybe you have so much cash coming out of your ass from all your gambling winnings that it did not matter.

Apologies for saying it was in an Authentic Altered holder as I was going on memory but that card was slabbed prior to SGC's recent change where they now ID the reason for the A.

Either way, you did an elaborate description on how you examined the card for days and see no reason it was in an authentic holder. It is a nice looking card that is clearly trimmed and also looks like the same person bathed the card in some secret sauce to minimize some toning or staining. So you either suck at seeing alterations or you conveniently looked the other way to cover up the fact that the card was described as being trimmed and decided to withhold that info from your potential buyer. I am not a data scientist so not sure how to calculate which one is more probable.

I see the card has been reholdered which suggests something: 1) You did try to get the card graded by breaking it out and resubmitting or 2) you simply wanted the card in a new holder, maybe in an effort to make the history less trackable. The fact you got it reholdered and it came back again as an A means it was rejected again for being altered or if you simply sent it in for a reholder because you accepted SGC's findings as it being altered. Either way you failed to disclose and instead participated in being misleading.

Snowman · #16 04-18-2024, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

All I know is that when I saw the card listed under your id, did not know at the time it was your id, I went to look up the history on it. I immediately found the listing that it tied to PWCC and saw the description.

I have never bought a card from PWCC's vault so I have no idea if they use descriptions or not. Gonna give ya that one. If you got it in a fixed price listing from the vault with no description, I would imagine if you were paying that much ya might want to do the same basic 2 minute search that I did and see the history but maybe you have so much cash coming out of your ass from all your gambling winnings that it did not matter.

Apologies for saying it was in an Authentic Altered holder as I was going on memory but that card was slabbed prior to SGC's recent change where they now ID the reason for the A.

Either way, you did an elaborate description on how you examined the card for days and see no reason it was in an authentic holder. It is a nice looking card that is clearly trimmed and also looks like the same person bathed the card in some secret sauce to minimize some toning or staining. So you either suck at seeing alterations or you conveniently looked the other way to cover up the fact that the card was described as being trimmed and decided to withhold that info from your potential buyer. I am not a data scientist so not sure how to calculate which one is more probable.

I see the card has been reholdered which suggests something: 1) You did try to get the card graded by breaking it out and resubmitting or 2) you simply wanted the card in a new holder, maybe in an effort to make the history less trackable. The fact you got it reholdered and it came back again as an A means it was rejected again for being altered or if you simply sent it in for a reholder because you accepted SGC's findings as it being altered. Either way you failed to disclose and instead participated in being misleading.

Just keep talking out your ass "Chase Antley".

PWCC paid to have the card reholdered because the casing was tampered with. Someone tried to open it with a screwdriver and failed.

The guy I sold it to is a friend. He got on a plane and flew out to San Jose and bought the card in person. He's an extremely experienced collector who knows exactly what he's doing and what he's looking at. We sat down together and he looked it over very thoroughly with a jeweler's loupe. He looked at all the edges closely. As did I. I told him my best guess is that it is most likely a factory miscut as it is just barely out of square on the top edge. But all the edges look correct. He agreed. I told him the reason I didn't resubmit it for grading is because SGC changed how they identify "AUTHENTIC" cards. I believe the card would be worth less if it somehow came back in an "AUTHENTIC ALTERED" holder or an "AUTHENTIC TRIMMED" holder, despite it very clearly not being trimmed. I believe it is worth more in the "A" holder. And I believe it looks better in that holder as well. The buyer agreed.

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