Would you buy a 1933 Goudey Ruth Raw?

[packs]

Uninformed about what? Because you're talking about many different things at once. Reproducing a block printed book and reproducing a layered and multi-colored baseball card are two different things.

And anyone will tell you that old paper and new ink always look different than old paper and old ink. It's one of the first things you look for when someone is trying to sell you a cut. It's also why pencil is typically avoided. It doesn't have the same tell-tale characteristics as ink.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Uninformed about what? Because you're talking about many different things at once. Reproducing a block printed book and reproducing a layered and colored baseball card are two different things.

And anyone will tell you that old paper and new ink always look different than old paper and old ink. It's one of the first things you look for when someone is trying to sell you a cut.

Yes I know, simple baseball cards would be so much easier.

[G1911]

If a crime is

1) highly profitable

2) easily or readily done

3) unlikely to be seriously punished

Then I would think there would be an awful lot of it. Conditions 1 and 3 are already met in the hobby. People are making and trying to sell fakes now, without any real punishment whatsoever for the fraud as the authorities are not interested in prosecuting these crimes, these fakes are just poorly done and obvious. That it is highly profitable to make undetectable or nearly undetectable fakes is obvious. So, if condition 2 is also met and it is pragmatically doable to make these, where are they?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

If a crime is

1) highly profitable

2) easily or readily done

3) unlikely to be seriously punished

Then I would think there would be an awful lot of it. Conditions 1 and 3 are already met in the hobby. People are making and trying to sell fakes now, without any real punishment whatsoever for the fraud as the authorities are not interested in prosecuting these crimes, these fakes are just poorly done and obvious. That it is highly profitable to make undetectable or nearly undetectable fakes is obvious. So, if condition 2 is also met and it is pragmatically doable to make these, where are they?

It is not that it can't be easily done. It is having access to the correct stuff to do it along with also being a shady person. Now that is a rare combo. The crap counterfeits you see now are not being made on original type equipment.

[packs]

Isn’t that like saying you could print your own money as long as you have the molds, same materials and equipment as the mint?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Isn’t that like saying you could print your own money as long as you have the molds, same materials and equipment as the mint?

People print money every single day. I hear that printing $10 is the least likely way to get you caught. Sadly even that doesn't always work or so I have heard.

Cards are nothing but simple paper and ink. Take any picture to any real print shop and they can make as many exact copies on any type of paper or card stock you want. But yes baseball cards are magic and somehow special.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bnorth

People print money every single day. I hear that printing $10 is the least likely way to get you caught. Sadly even that doesn't always work or so I have heard.

Cards are nothing but simple paper and ink. Take any picture to any real print shop and they can make as many exact copies on any type of paper or card stock you want. But yes baseball cards are magic and somehow special.

I doubt it would be impossible but it might not be easy to fake the uneven patina on pre war cards.
And don't be fooling around with the 144....(a 1 piece instead of a 2 piece, shown above)

.

[steve B]

As far as an outright fake goes, I believe it's possible to make one that will pass the grading companies.

There were few changes in lithography between about 1920 and the late 1980's. The sort of equipment the shop I worked for had is out of date for modern production printing but is readily available. A smallish press can be had for a couple thousand, and the other stuff is also available, camera, plate maker, cutter. Light tables are easy to make.

The stock wouldn't be that hard, I haven't looked for it, but it should be available.
Inks have changed, but the art lithography market has a lot of available inks.

Now, the question of "undetectable" really depends on who is doing the detecting and how seriously they look at things.

The angle of the cut may be different between cutters. I'll have to give it some thought, but older machines had a slightly different path for the blade. So that may be detectable.
Paper that won't react to UV is still made, almost all acid free paper doesn't include brighteners. It has a lot that's wrong, but comic book backing boards are not reactive to UV.
So with some knowledge and some looking, that gets you nearly all the way there.

Would modern stuff like inks and paper stand up to something like and XRF machine? Probably not. Unless you really really did some research to get as close as possible.

Is PSA or any other commercial TPG going to use one? No, not for the forseeable future.

I saw a fake 51 Mantle over 40 years ago. Shopped around to several dealers, very nice looking card. My local shop had it and just handed it to me and asked what I thought.
After looking at it for a few minutes "Very nice looking card, too bad it's fake"
"OK, why is it fake"
"I can't put my finger on why, but it just is."
"That's what we think, and the other 5 dealers who have seen it"

That was probably 81? While I was either still at the printers or had just left for college. Maybe 82.
I think today I could figure out the why. I'm not sure PSA could, and would bet that card eventually ended up in a very high grade slab.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is not that it can't be easily done. It is having access to the correct stuff to do it along with also being a shady person. Now that is a rare combo. The crap counterfeits you see now are not being made on original type equipment.

That nobody has managed to do this and make the many many millions of dollars it would net strongly suggests it cannot be easily or readily or pragmatically done. People will and often do infinitely worse for much lower gains. I’ve yet to see any evidence that there are any real ethics in this hobby and that the dirtbags abounding wouldn’t do this because they aren’t shady enough