Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BRoberts

Perhaps Scott Russell of The Collector Connection can post about the legalities of an auction house selling items it knows it doesn't have in its possession. Scott has said he graduated from auction school, and I bet that topic was covered.

I am about as certain as I can be that ML would've consulted with counsel before making the decision they did. I don't remember ever discussing auctioning of things that have been stolen prior to completion of the auction. It's a pretty unique scenario.

A related concept that is covered and is legal is that there are a surprising number of auction companies (not necessarily sports) that auction items they don't have possession of. Whether they're allowing a consignor hold the item until they approve of the sale and in some cases even allowing them to ship it on to the final destination on behalf of the auction company. We are advised against the practice in school for a number of pretty obvious reasons. I've had consignors try and make these arrangements with me, we turn down the consignments. Amazingly though, it is not actually illegal (really isn't that in essence what an ebay auction is?)

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Amazingly though, it is not actually illegal (really isn't that in essence what an ebay auction is?)

Is it legal to list things on ebay one doesn't have? I'm sure it's against their rules.

I'm going to a flea market this weekend and I'm "optimistic" I'll soon have a green Cobb available. Can I list it on ebay now?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Is it legal to list things on ebay one doesn't have? I'm sure it's against their rules.

I'm going to a flea market this weekend and I'm "optimistic" I'll soon have a green Cobb available. Can I list it on ebay now?

I really doubt it is against any rules as a there are a ton of eBay sellers who don't own anything they have listed for sale.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I am about as certain as I can be that ML would've consulted with counsel before making the decision they did. I don't remember ever discussing auctioning of things that have been stolen prior to completion of the auction. It's a pretty unique scenario.

A related concept that is covered and is legal is that there are a surprising number of auction companies (not necessarily sports) that auction items they don't have possession of. Whether they're allowing a consignor hold the item until they approve of the sale and in some cases even allowing them to ship it on to the final destination on behalf of the auction company. We are advised against the practice in school for a number of pretty obvious reasons. I've had consignors try and make these arrangements with me, we turn down the consignments. Amazingly though, it is not actually illegal (really isn't that in essence what an ebay auction is?)

Thanks, Scott. Appreciate your perspective.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I am about as certain as I can be that ML would've consulted with counsel before making the decision they did. I don't remember ever discussing auctioning of things that have been stolen prior to completion of the auction. It's a pretty unique scenario.

A related concept that is covered and is legal is that there are a surprising number of auction companies (not necessarily sports) that auction items they don't have possession of. Whether they're allowing a consignor hold the item until they approve of the sale and in some cases even allowing them to ship it on to the final destination on behalf of the auction company. We are advised against the practice in school for a number of pretty obvious reasons. I've had consignors try and make these arrangements with me, we turn down the consignments. Amazingly though, it is not actually illegal (really isn't that in essence what an ebay auction is?)

Scott, appreciate your insight. Since you are the only AH to comment on this thread, what would you have done if consignments in an upcoming auction were stolen?

[Powell]

I believe Memory Lane had and has a good faith need the cards would be recovered. It is making consignors whole. I cut ML slack here.

[oldjudge]

Unless ML contacted the insurance company as soon as the cards went missing and was instructed by the insurance company to proceed with the auction I believe it was wrong to not remove those lots from the bidding. Values, I believe, could have been determined by other means.Hopefully, the cards will be recovered soon and this will become a non-issue for all involved.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Unless ML contacted the insurance company as soon as the cards went missing and was instructed by the insurance company to proceed with the auction I believe it was wrong to not remove those lots from the bidding. Values, I believe, could have been determined by other means.Hopefully, the cards will be recovered soon and this will become a non-issue for all involved.

I absolutely assume ML contacted authorities and insurance, not necessarily in that order, immediately. Those entities, and ML's counsel, were help making the decisions, would be my guess.
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I absolutely assume ML contacted authorities and insurance, not necessarily in that order, immediately. Those entities, and ML's counsel, were help making the decisions, would be my guess.
.

I don't consign. In the ordinary course, do a consignor and AH agree to the value of significant cards for insurance purposes, or is there a standard provision for determining value in the event of loss?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't consign. In the ordinary course, do a consignor and AH agree to the value of significant cards for insurance purposes, or is there a standard provision for determining value in the event of loss?

In this case Ryan stated that he and Joe came up with the worst case, expected and best outcome as far as prices per card.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't consign. In the ordinary course, do a consignor and AH agree to the value of significant cards for insurance purposes, or is there a standard provision for determining value in the event of loss?

In the contracts I have signed, there have been approximate values put on the items, including when I sold my collection (or at least an aggregate amount, but it got there througha an estimated value of each lot.) Others might have different experiences.
.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Leon

I absolutely assume ML contacted authorities and insurance, not necessarily in that order, immediately. Those entities, and ML's counsel, were help making the decisions, would be my guess.
.

That's a fact, it's not a guess

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

That's a fact, it's not a guess

Any of those entities advising to continue a phantom auction seems a bit dubious but perhaps that’s wrong. How do you know the actual fact?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Unless ML contacted the insurance company as soon as the cards went missing and was instructed by the insurance company to proceed with the auction I believe it was wrong to not remove those lots from the bidding. Values, I believe, could have been determined by other means.Hopefully, the cards will be recovered soon and this will become a non-issue for all involved.

I think as a consignor you might want the auction to run on cards like these and as a bidder you would never want such a thing to happen. And I can see it both ways from an insurance companies point of view but what a length to go to to get FMV. YIKES.

Imagine if insurance companies added that provision to policies? One could never know if the item being offered is actually there to be bought or if it is to ascertain a value for an ins claim.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Scott, appreciate your insight. Since you are the only AH to comment on this thread, what would you have done if consignments in an upcoming auction were stolen?

I do want to avoid making comments that seem critical of other companies, ESPECIALLY not knowing all the details.

I can say that I have always personally traveled with consignments that are going to shows. Of course in my case that is, to date, larger amounts of lower value items than the ones in question. I've brought maybe half a million in consignments to the National, but it was a helluva lot more than 50 cards!

Of course just because I am with the items doesn't mean they couldn't be stolen, but most of what we sell has pretty easily established value unlike many of the items in the ML situation. So I doubt we'd "need" to let them continue at auction to come up with an accurate settlement. Even so I would obviously comply with whatever path my insurance company wanted me to take.

My preference would be to pull the items but if my insurance company (or lawyer or law enforcement) requested I do otherwise, I imagine I would do what ML is doing.

Our travel/transport rider is 600k I am sure ML's is significantly higher. When insurance companies have to start paying on bigger claims they call a lot of the shots. They are likely also involved in the investigation of the crime. They'd rather it be solved and resolved than paid.

There are no winners in a situation like this and I'm sure ML is trying prevent as many people as possible from feeling like they're on the losing end.

I don't personally know anyone at ML so anything I say is conjecture and shouldn't be taken as me having inside information.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Scott, appreciate your insight. Since you are the only AH to comment on this thread, what would you have done if consignments in an upcoming auction were stolen?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that Scott wouldn't have shipped 2 million dollars worth of cards to a Best Western via FedEx to be held for 3 days prior to arriving there.