Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

First mentioned here...https://www.net54baseball.com/showpo...7&postcount=10

Not blaming Phil as he was only making a suggestion but other respected posters jumped on board validating the choice.

And seems another leap from there to the proposition that the insurance company required it.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

This doesn’t make sense, why would ML keep an auction running if the items were stolen? Something doesn’t add up.

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'm not sure how else would you establish insurance value?

Originally Posted by calvindog

Correct

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I received a call after Sunday night (a day after auction ended) telling me that a box of cards had been stolen. First, I was assured that I will be paid out 100%, on the final value of the auction, which I have no doubt will happen, whether insurance covers it or not (and I am sure they will). Second, I was told the auction had to continue in order to establish the fair market value of the cards, otherwise, how does anyone establish the value/hammer price. Third, I was told anyone who won a stolen card will be given the option, but not obligation, to buy the card at the hammer price + BP if they are found. Plus, they are optimistic the cards will be found.

A few other things:

1. The cards were stolen, not lost or misplaced. The cards got to their intended destination, were signed for and stored, and then taken. As far as I can tell, ML has done nothing wrong or irresponsible.

2. It sucks for the buyers, but they are out no money, only expectations. They may have missed out on another card, but they are in no worse position than before the auction started. The bigger issue would have been how much do you pay the consignors? Do you guess, do you just settle, do you litigate? Running the auction, which I am sure was done at the advice of both counsel and insurance, to establish value is certainly the best path with the least damage given the crappy situation that’s nobody’s fault. There is no winning answer under these circumstances. It sucks, millions $$ of cards got stolen and ML is on the hook. No bueno all around

3. ML owes me a lot of money. I have complete confidence I will get every dime (and have proactively been assured numerous times of that and I will get paid before insurance ever kicks in). I do not blame ML for this and I think they are doing all the right things under real crappy circumstances. I think it sucks balls for the collecting community bc the cards may be gone from the hobby forever. Hopefully the turn up.

Originally Posted by Leon

What does that mean? There is no con. ML had to do what they had to do and no doubt they took advice from counsel as well as others. There is a possiblity of the cards being recovered. It sucks for everyone involved. Hopefully, the cards will eventually be returned. Most of our pre war cards are like fingerprints, so there is a possibilty......
.

Originally Posted by 4815162342

+1

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

+2 (coming from the consignor with the most to lose and a bidder who won a very rare and expensive card that will almost certainly not come up again for sale for many years).

The people most impacted understand and are satisfied with how ML is handing it. The situation sucks and is unfortunate, but there is no perfect answer. That said, I am sure that ML proceeded on the advice of counsel, the insurance company, the cops, etc.

It looks like it started with affirmation from a lawyer that running the auction without disclosing that the items were stolen was the best way to establish insurance value, and then Ryan drove it home by stating that consignors are the only real stakeholders, and that running the auction without the cards in hand was the best way to make sure consignors get a reasonable appraisal for insurance purposes.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

It looks like it started with affirmation from a lawyer that running the auction without disclosing that the items were stolen was the best way to establish insurance value, and then Ryan drove it home by stating that consignors are the only real stakeholders, and that running the auction without the cards in hand was the best way to make sure consignors get a reasonable appraisal for insurance purposes.

Awesome summary...Once upon a time...oh sorry.

Anyway, odds seem very unlikely there will be any insurance company involved in covering this but as Ryan stated, there is more to the story and it is none of our business.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

It looks like it started with affirmation from a lawyer that running the auction without disclosing that the items were stolen was the best way to establish insurance value, and then Ryan drove it home by stating that consignors are the only real stakeholders, and that running the auction without the cards in hand was the best way to make sure consignors get a reasonable appraisal for insurance purposes.

Or we could look at it an alternative way, from a baseball card collector perspective.

We've heard from two bidders who won two of the 50+/- cards that were stolen.

Powell Miller who's reaction is Stoic as hell, especially after the Boston Garter shitshow, he's someone I would like to meet and have a sandwich with sometime. He now owns a 7.5 Cobb bat off, is ML shipping tomorrow? No of course not, but he owns it and doesn't have to pay for it until delivery.
If it turns up 3 years from now he still owns it, it's his card and this auction has clearly established ownership. And he owns it at the strike price

Daryl owns the only Mello Mint Cobb, (congrats Daryl) that card belongs in his collection and he owns it.

I don't see him complaining about the the stuff that rabbit hole central is complaining about, he just wants his card, he owns it now and is a fantastic addition to his set, just because he doesn't have possession yet is immaterial.

I'm a little hesitant to prioritize the opinions of folks that aren't in the 50+/- crowd and have no skin in the game, a lot of pearl clutching outrage on this sub.

I'd like to hear the perspective of bidders who actually own the cards in question.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Or we could look at it an alternative way, from a baseball card collector perspective.

We've heard from two bidders who won two of the 50+/- cards that were stolen.

Powell Miller who's reaction is Stoic as hell, especially after the Boston Garter shitshow, he's someone I would like to meet and have a sandwich with sometime. He now owns a 7.5 Cobb bat off, is ML shipping tomorrow? No of course not, but he owns it and doesn't have to pay for it until delivery.
If it turns up 3 years from now he still owns it, it's his card and this auction has clearly established ownership. And he owns it at the strike price

Daryl owns the only Mello Mint Cobb, (congrats Daryl) that card belongs in his collection and he owns it.

I don't see him complaining about the the stuff that rabbit hole central is complaining about, he just wants his card, he owns it now and is a fantastic addition to his set, just because he doesn't have possession yet is immaterial.

I'm a little hesitant to prioritize the opinions of folks that aren't in the 50+/- crowd and have no skin in the game, a lot of pearl clutching outrage on this sub.

I'd like to hear the perspective of bidders who actually own the cards in question.

What do they own?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Carter08

What do they own?

Nothing. But that’s a silly rabbit hole detail.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by G1911

Nothing. But that’s a silly rabbit hole detail.

I tend to look at things from a real estate perspective because that's the business I'm in.
If you offered me a property at a specific price and I agreed to that price but I didn't have to pay 1 cent to acquire the rights to that property but had the option to consummate the deal at a future date based on future value how is that not a win for me?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I tend to look at things from a real estate perspective because that's the business I'm in.
If you offered me a property at a specific price and I agreed to that price but I didn't have to pay 1 cent to acquire the rights to that property but had the option to consummate the deal at a future date based on future value how is that not a win for me?

It's a win, when compared to a baseline of nothing. However, of course, that is not the actual situation.

When people bid in an auction with a 'respected' auction house, the implicit expectation is that it is an actual, legitimate auction and the cards will be sent to the winner. Instead of sending payment and getting the card, in most of these cases here a very rare and difficult card you can't just go get another of, they have been given an option on a contingency that probably won't transpire. This did not happen because of a last second problem, but because the auction house lied and continued to lie running a fake, fraudulent auction for items they do not have and cannot possibly deliver and they knew they could not deliver. What a bait and switch!

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Carter08

What do they own?

They own the cards they won in the auction and do not need to spend any money until they receive their cards, how is that not a collecting win?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think what they own is more in the nature of an option subject to a contingency, I don't think they own the cards, they haven't paid and indeed they are not obligated to pay under any circumstances.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think what they own is more in the nature of an option subject to a contingency, I don't think they own the cards, they haven't paid and indeed they are not obligated to pay under any circumstances.

Which gives the high bidder all the power, No?

[Mark17]

So far this discussion has mainly been focused on establishing value, for insurance purposes and to make everybody whole (after it's determined where liability lies.)

Here's a hypothetical: Since the cards were mailed from out of state, and it's a large sum, suppose the FBI is, indeed, running the investigation. Maybe it was THEIR idea to run the auction as though nothing had happened.

If it wasn't public knowledge that cards were stolen, and more importantly, exactly which ones, maybe it was an FBI-initiated "sting" operation to try to identify unusual bidding behavior. For example, some person, or group, bidding up only the stolen cards, to inflate their perceived value. Or, hoping some bidder might somehow reveal knowledge unknown to the public, like asking unusual questions, etc.

IF this is generally what happened, then I would have to change my mind and say that ML did the right thing in working with law enforcement to solve the crime.

Another package was tampered with, but not taken. I wonder if fingerprints were obtained that could be cross-checked against employees or others with access to the package. Maybe this is the reason for their stated "optimism."

So... If it was done to establish value, I think that was wrong. If it was a key part of the investigation, under direction of law enforcement, I would unquestionably change my mind completely.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think what they own is more in the nature of an option subject to a contingency, I don't think they own the cards, they haven't paid and indeed they are not obligated to pay under any circumstances.

Unless terms and conditions state otherwise ownership changes hands at the fall of the hammer (literal or virtual) NOT at the time of payment. So by law, the winning bidders could easily be considered the owners.

Auction law is weird, the situation is weirder, lawyers could get rich off of this kind of weirdness.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

He now owns a 7.5 Cobb bat off, is ML shipping tomorrow? No of course not, but he owns it and doesn't have to pay for it until delivery.
If it turns up 3 years from now he still owns it, it's his card and this auction has clearly established ownership. And he owns it at the strike price.

No sir, once he is refunded it is not his card and not at that price. 3 yrs when the cards are worth half, try getting the people to.pay!

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

No sir, once he. s refunded it is not his card and not at that price. 3 urs when the cards are worth half, try getting the people to.pay!

ML said it would be the buyers option whether he wanted the card or not. But my logic was flawed, if insurance pays and the cards are found it is the property of the insurance company.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

ML said it would be the buyers option whether he wanted the card or not. But my logic was flawed, if insurance pays and the cards are found it is the property of the insurance company.

Ah! Wasn't aware ML.said that. Again I won a psa 2 green Cobb 3 yrs ago and was never refunded and thr card enver shipped. If it turns up, I have no claim. Prisco auctions stole 50k via live auctioneers and nobody was made whole

[brianp-beme]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda

If the cards are not recovered then the carrier will subrogate against BW due to their negligence. The small statutory innkeepers liability limit will not protect BW in this case.

Exhibitman:

Explain how you come to this conclusion, please. My understanding is that subrogees are subject to all the same defenses as their subrogors. If there is an innkeepers' law that protects the hotel against a theft claim from the guest (subrogor), it also protects against the insurer (subrogee) who assumes the claim under an insurance contract.


"Subrogees, subrogors...let's call the whole subrogate off."

Signature song from the upcoming Broadway musical "Subrogate: The Saga of Memory Lane"


brianp(arker)-beme

[Bigdaddy]

Would people feel differently if, instead of being stolen, the cards had been destroyed in such a way that there was zero chance of recovery?

For everyone's sake - consigners, ML, auction winners and the hobby in general - lets hope the cards are recovered unscathed and do not go that way that Yogi's rings did after they were stolen. Melted down and sold by the ounce.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Would people feel differently if, instead of being stolen, the cards had been destroyed in such a way that there was zero chance of recovery?

For everyone's sake - consigners, ML, auction winners and the hobby in general - lets hope the cards are recovered unscathed and do not go that way that Yogi's rings did after they were stolen. Melted down and sold by the ounce.

Sort of. If the AH truly-but ultimately wrongly-thought they would get the items back in time it’s slightly more defensible to run the auction. It would still be running an auction on items it currently does not possess which just seems bizarre. But my thinking on this comes back to the police officer in Big Lebowski investigating the stolen car—essentially laughing at the idea they would recover stolen goods. Perhaps there’s information we don’t know that these items will be found but even the consignor said he’s sad for the hobby because they are probably gone forever. Agreed.