Negro League Stats included in official MLB records

oldjudge · #1 05-29-2024, 02:02 PM

Ty who? Gibson now has the highest batting average ever. I think this is ridiculous--the competition was not the same. This is just a botched attempt to atone for past injustices.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 05-29-2024, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ty who? Gibson now has the highest batting average ever. I think this is ridiculous--the competition was not the same. This is just a botched attempt to atone for past injustices.

Given the sparsity of the stats, how could he have enough at bats to qualify?

prestigecollectibles · #3 05-29-2024, 02:25 PM

You can see and sort all the stats here:
Batting
https://www.mlb.com/stats/batting-av...ll-time-totals

Pitching
https://www.mlb.com/stats/pitching/wins/all-time-totals

Touch'EmAll · #4 05-29-2024, 02:39 PM

The legend of Satchell Paige is full of amazing stories. I want to believe he may have been the best ever. I cherish the couple Paige cards I own ('48 Bowman & Exhibit)) It seems appropriate, based on the stories, to include him in the discussion of greatest pitcher ever.

A few years ago I tries to get a handle on Satchell's stats. Unfortunately, with whatever research I could find on the internet, I came to the conclusion that there just is extremely minimal concrete stats. There simply wasn't enough meat to be found that could justify his legendary status. So you live with the stories, accept the fact not much in the way of stats and move on.

So now, how in the world is MLB able to come up with enough detail and solid stats, comparable to actual MLB player stats, to start including all the amazing, fully worthy HOF caliber players that played in the Negro Leagues ?

toppcat · #5 05-29-2024, 04:13 PM

Immaculate Grid's about to get REAL interesting!

cgjackson222 · #6 05-29-2024, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toppcat

Immaculate Grid's about to get REAL interesting!

Immaculate Grid has been counting Major Negro League Stats for the entirety of its existence, as Baseball Reference had made the integration of Negro League stats long ago.

But it gets tricky. I once chose Hank Aaron as a Negro League player and it come up as wrong, because he has no stats with any of the 7 Major Negro Leagues.

oldjudge · #7 05-29-2024, 04:17 PM

I just think comparing Negro League stats to MLB stats is comparing apples and oranges. I don't know with 100% certainty which league was better, but I do know that they were not the same and calling the stats equivalent doesn't seem correct to me.

Lorewalker · #8 05-29-2024, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I just think comparing Negro League stats to MLB stats is comparing apples and oranges. I don't know with 100% certainty which league was better, but I do know that they were not the same and calling the stats equivalent doesn't seem correct to me.

I dislike that guys who have been identified as using or most likely using PEDs are in the record books with those who did not. Also is the guy who hit .300 in the 19th century as great a hitter as the guy who hit .300 in the 21st century?

conor912 · #9 05-31-2024, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Given the sparsity of the stats, how could he have enough at bats to qualify?

That was my initial thought. Gibson played in 600 games lifetime�.compared to Ruth�s 2500. The whole thing is silly, but whatever.

Exhibitman · #10 05-31-2024, 12:56 PM

I think the only real world lab we have to test the quality of Negro League play is what happened in the first ten years of integration.

ML ROY 1947: Robinson
NL ROY:
--1949: Newcombe
--1950: Jethro
--1951: Mays
--1952: Black
--1953: Gilliam

NL MVP:
--1949: Robinson
--1951, 1953, 1955: Campanella
--1954: Mays
--1956: Newcombe
--1957: Aaron

Notable black players who came into the game from 1947-56 and had an impact at the MLB level:
--Jackie Robinson
--Campanella
--Mays
--Irvin
--Minoso
--Doby
--Banks
--Aaron
--Frank Robinson
--Clemente
--Elston Howard
--Jim Gilliam
--Newcombe
--Joe Black
--Hank Thompson
--Luke Easter
--Satchel Paige

Probably some others who don't come to my mind readily (I usually see their cards in my head and remember who was who that way). There were also a number of NL players who got very short trials in MLB and were cut down immediately if they were not spectacular off the bat. Mays was one of the lucky ones in working with Durocher, who was not quick to pull that demotion trigger on him after he went 1 for 25 to start, yet the Giants kicked Artie Wilson back down to the PCL after 24 at-bats produced 4 hits.

My point is that the black players who entered the Bigs in that first decade comprised an all-star team that could have beaten any white team of the era. Carrying NL stats as MLB stats, I don't see a good argument for not doing that given the quality of the players who were or would have been in the NL had there not been integration. Bottom line for me is that if NL stats are MLB stats, you can't make distinctions between seasons given how the game was played at a time of segregation. The NL players played the game they had available to them.

Oh, and a card:

Republicaninmass · #11 05-31-2024, 03:28 PM

Well throw your RoY analogy out the window because they "had been playing MLB" for year prior.

People now clamorimg to have their Roy's removed from history and awarded to 2nd best

Carter08 · #12 05-31-2024, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Well throw your RoY analogy out the window because they "had been playing MLB" for year prior.

People now clamorimg to have their Roy's removed from history and awarded to 2nd best

Who is clamoring?

Republicaninmass · #13 06-01-2024, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Who is clamoring?

Scores of protesters today marched with torches and pitchforks to MLB stadiums against the championship title of "world series". MLB has decided they would be changing the title of their trophy, as well as going back through all records and removing the title of world champions. Also, new trophies will be awarded to Zimbabwes Tigers who went 160-2 in 1975, as well as many other baseball teams around the world for their compelling records. More to follow on this breaking story.

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #14 05-31-2024, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

the black players who entered the Bigs in that first decade comprised an all-star team that could have beaten any white team of the era.

Well, yeah, because the creme de la creme of Negro League players were naturally selected to integrate first. Your statement is accurate, but the obvious has to be kept in mind.

Exhibitman · #15 05-31-2024, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Well, yeah, because the creme de la creme of Negro League players were naturally selected to integrate first. Your statement is accurate, but the obvious has to be kept in mind.

I agree but I am not sure what that proves or disproves. If you want to see how the best of the NL stacked up against MLB under league game conditions and you don't want to compare stats between NL and MLB because of differences in play and conditions, tracking that pioneer group in MLB is the best we can do.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 05-29-2024, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ty who? Gibson now has the highest batting average ever. I think this is ridiculous--the competition was not the same. This is just a botched attempt to atone for past injustices.

I think a bigger concern is the incompleteness of the stats. In some cases it seems to pick up only a small fraction of the games an individual played.

Snowman · #17 05-30-2024, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ty who? Gibson now has the highest batting average ever. I think this is ridiculous--the competition was not the same. This is just a botched attempt to atone for past injustices.

And you think Ty Cobb's competition was the same as post-war players? lol

Peter_Spaeth · #18 05-30-2024, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

And you think Ty Cobb's competition was the same as post-war players? lol

Comparing players across eras is not the same as comparing contemporaneous leagues. Your point seems irrelevant to the one Jay raised. His point (and not commenting on its merit) would be as if MLB decided to include this year's minor league stats in determining leaders.

Lorewalker · #19 05-30-2024, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Comparing players across eras is not the same as comparing contemporaneous leagues. Your point seems irrelevant to the one Jay raised. His point (and not commenting on its merit) would be as if MLB decided to include this year's minor league stats in determining leaders.

I posted essentially the same thing that snowman did to Jay's comments. And I have never thought of MLB stats by era being relevant but when people are opposing the stats of a group of people who were outright denied the chance to play in the MLB, not because they were not good enough but because of the color of their skin, the argument comparing eras has some merit.

There is no perfect solution to this...sorta like the ML auction debate (though some very esteemed members did not see it as a debate)...I think most who look at stats take into account the era as well as the guys who are suspected of using PEDs.

In my personal opinion, having the stats included with MLB stats does not make those players any more legit than they already were. And at least our hobby shares that view if we take the prices alone for what the NL players' cards, postcards, etc sell for.

ValKehl · #20 05-31-2024, 11:41 AM

I don't know enough about the Negro Leagues to have a meaningful opinion re the statistics issue. But, from the FWIW department, below are the first few paragraphs from a piece by Kevin Blackistone that appears is the Sports Section of today's Wash. Post. If anyone cares to read this entire piece, here's the link to it: https://wapo.st/3RaqMGu

"A chapter inside the 1991 edition of �Total Baseball� written by sports scholar Jules Tygiel, whom I interviewed a few times for his seminal research on the Negro Leagues, recounts offseason whistle-stop games in which White baseball stars played against their counterparts in the Black leagues.

The section came to mind this week after MLB�s Negro Leagues Statistical Review Committee, led by official MLB historian John Thorn, concluded that the achievements of Black players during the 60-year segregated era should be included in the official statistics of what, despite that racist history, has been celebrated as America�s pastime.

�Postseason tours against big league stars offered an opportunity for black players to prove their equality on the diamond,� Tygiel wrote in 1991. �Matchups between the Babe Ruth or Dizzy Dean �All-Stars� and black players became frequent. The most famous of the interracial barnstorming tours occurred in 1946, when Cleveland Indians pitcher Bob Feller organized a major league all-star team and toured the nation accompanied by the Satchel Paige All-Stars.

�Surviving records reveal that blacks won two-thirds of all interracial games,� Tygiel pointed out.

In other words, as I argued Wednesday on �Around the Horn�: �The Negro Leagues were never less than major. They weren�t minor leagues.�

Vintageclout · #21 05-31-2024, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ty who? Gibson now has the highest batting average ever. I think this is ridiculous--the competition was not the same. This is just a botched attempt to atone for past injustices.

Jay - I agree 150%. An absolute joke!

Exhibitman · #22 05-31-2024, 08:16 PM

Your new single-season batting average leader, Tetelo Vargas .471:

Republicaninmass · #23 05-31-2024, 09:03 PM

Highest on base percentage

Eddie Gaedel. 1.000

Leon · #24 06-01-2024, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Your new single-season batting average leader, Tetelo Vargas .471:

single season batting leader -Not mine.

.

Goudey · #25 06-01-2024, 12:07 PM

With 30 games played that year. What a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Your new single-season batting average leader, Tetelo Vargas .471:

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