Does reduced trimming trump centering?

Gorditadogg · #1 06-06-2024, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I politely disagree with being able to identify trimming, as an exact science. No grader I have ever spoken with (and I have spoken to many) say it's an exact science. Take your factory guillotine cut cards, cut a sliver off with an exacto knife, and rub your finger over the edges. There is no way to tell it was cut, period. And nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise.

Just my opinion and everyone has their own ideas. I only base mine on experience.

What if Steve and Greg entered that contest at the card show and both nailed 20 out of 20. Would you still not be convinced?

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steve B · #2 06-06-2024, 12:20 PM

I've seen a display of altered stamps that were good enough I couldn't spot the alterations. Those were miles ahead of any trimming I've seen.

I would be open to being tested. if someone sent a common or two, with or without known trimming to keep it from being just a hunt for what I would know is there, I believe I could find a trim nearly every time.

Could I do it in 30 seconds like the grading companies take? I'm not sure.

I would be open to similar tests for any alterations. Some of the borderline ones where some think it's altering some don't may in fact be undetectable some of the time. Like wiping off a wax stain.

Leon · #3 06-06-2024, 12:44 PM

For the same reason I don't cut strips of cards, or already damaged cards, I wouldn't want to test your abilities. I am sure you would do very well. That said, I just reaffirmed with a grader whom I happen to know, he doesn't think trimming is an exact science either. I am quite sure any good grader will say the same thing. That doesn't mean they don't catch a lot, or most, of the alterations. I think they do. But there are some things I just don't think they can detect. And I am not talking about higher grade cards. I am talking the 2s-5s ranges....which will have normal, handled, wear.

To Al above, if they got 20 of 20 right, I would have to re-eavaluate my position

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

I've seen a display of altered stamps that were good enough I couldn't spot the alterations. Those were miles ahead of any trimming I've seen.

I would be open to being tested. if someone sent a common or two, with or without known trimming to keep it from being just a hunt for what I would know is there, I believe I could find a trim nearly every time.

Could I do it in 30 seconds like the grading companies take? I'm not sure.

I would be open to similar tests for any alterations. Some of the borderline ones where some think it's altering some don't may in fact be undetectable some of the time. Like wiping off a wax stain.

Snowman · #4 06-06-2024, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

What if Steve and Greg entered that contest at the card show and both nailed 20 out of 20. Would you still not be convinced?

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I'd award them each ten grand if they could identify even 5 out of 20

G1911 · #5 06-06-2024, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'd award them each ten grand if they could identify even 5 out of 20

If you start honoring your bets and send Jeremy his $10K, I'll take you up on this offer.

steve B · #6 06-07-2024, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'd award them each ten grand if they could identify even 5 out of 20

Send me 20 and lets see.

There are sets that would be very hard, and I don't think I could tell reliably. Ramlys, T51, other very thin cards.

Send 20 cards, probably best if they're commons. (or 10 or 30 , whatever, as long as it's not hundreds or thousands...)
There can be any number of them trimmed, as long as you know which ones, or even if it's all or none of them.
Maybe send the list beforehand to a third party, and third party. So someone else has the identical info. Me not knowing and someone else knowing keeps us both honest.

That's an open offer to anyone.
Unlike some, while I don't like being wrong, I'm ok with it if it can be proven.

GeoPoto · #7 06-07-2024, 08:37 AM

To the extent that this discussion has progressed to a very specific dispute regarding how reliably an experienced detective can correctly determine whether a card has been trimmed, I would like to point out that it has gone beyond the dilemma I was trying to point out. The world I live in is limited to looking at AH images and deciding whether the card offered is an "upgrade" to my collection or not. This forum has taught me to be leery of TPG grades and authentications. Common sense (and Leon) offers the notion that larger borders correlate with reduced probabilities of trimming. From there it's a short leap to the tradeoffs involved in choosing between well centered cards with skimpy borders and less well-centered cards with meaty borders.

Leon · #8 06-14-2024, 04:56 PM

I subscribe to buying what you are comfortable with. Many collectors, especially going for a registry number, might not care as much. You can find centered cards with big borders but they are more scarce...
I am comfortable with this card not being trimmed but have few high grade cards otherwise... (keep buying big borders

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

To the extent that this discussion has progressed to a very specific dispute regarding how reliably an experienced detective can correctly determine whether a card has been trimmed, I would like to point out that it has gone beyond the dilemma I was trying to point out. The world I live in is limited to looking at AH images and deciding whether the card offered is an "upgrade" to my collection or not. This forum has taught me to be leery of TPG grades and authentications. Common sense (and Leon) offers the notion that larger borders correlate with reduced probabilities of trimming. From there it's a short leap to the tradeoffs involved in choosing between well centered cards with skimpy borders and less well-centered cards with meaty borders.

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