It's Closing Night of a Great Vintage Auction

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by raulus

Is it really collusion though?

For example, if I know that my buddy absolutely has to have something to complete his collection. It's an obscure item, and there aren't many other bidders. For the sake of argument, it's something that I am mildly interested in acquiring, but not really willing to spend very much. I know that my buddy is going to be willing to go nuts to get it, far more than I ever will.

Would it really rise to collusion if I decide to sit that item out?

Let's assume for a moment that all of this goes on without us actually discussing this item specifically, simply because I know my buddy and his collection, and because we're such good friends that I'm not going to be that guy.

There would have to be a conversation. Collusion has to be a concerted effort between multiple parties. Deciding on your own not to bid is not that.

[Kco]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Glad you said it, I was biting my tongue.

Of course it's not the intent of the law to penalize a couple of buddies, but it has been prosecuted and recently when it is a true matter of collusion intended to depress the bidding artificially.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/nine-...osure-auctions

and there are others.

Respectfully disagree on it being collusion between a couple of friends and fellow collectors to choose not to bid on an item the other is truly after.

The reality is one person not bidding probably doesn't change the price much if at all, considering the hundreds of thousands to millions of additional consumers in the marketplace that you aren't in contact with that may also have interest in that item.

With how front and center auctions are now, my buddy Bob electing not go go after an item to not bid against a friend is unlikely to have any material change on the market value of that piece. If only you and Bob were willing to fight for the item in the first place, and it goes for a very low price, then the market wasn't really much of a market to begin with and you'd have been overpaying.

If something is too good of a deal, a dealer or flipper will bid in principal to grab a deal and flip it.

[Kco]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'm not sure I understand the ethical argument here, technically yes, talking to any other person about a listing would be considered collusion.

In reality, it happens more like this.

"Hey, did you see that E-card in XYZ auction?"

"I did, are you interested in it? I know we both collect cards like that."

"Yes, I'd probably be at 2K on it, I have my eye on that T-card in the same auction so that would be my priority".

"I'd probably go 2.5K since I need it for my collection."

"Okay, good luck, I hope you get it."

And the results are usually my buddy overpaying for the E-card and me overpaying for the T-card since there are always other bidders involved, and more often than not neither one of us wins.

Now I could see if all of the potential bidders got together and chose one guy to win like Scott's example link, that would definitely qualify has collusion.

Exactly my point, acting like 2 buddies deciding to prioritize which item they are going for the hardest has ANY material change on the auction final price is funny, as if there aren't 20 others bidding on most desirable items.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

100 percent legit. Do you think the seller won't be happy with the results?
After all these guys are registry whores and will pay 100k for a 1969 Jackson 10.

Registry whores indeed. Elm, this one is right up your alley.

[Leon]

Interestingly, no and yes, are virtually tied right now.

.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Leon

Interestingly, no and yes, are virtually tied right now.

.

I wonder how many people who voted actually buy cards in auctions/from auction houses.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I wonder how many people who voted actually buy cards in auctions/from auction houses.

You worried that we're all just keyboard warriors who love to pontificate without actually ever having experienced the activity in question?

I would guess that most people here have bought at least a card or two at auction. Particularly if you're willing to cast a wide net and include eBay and all of the multiplicity of the various AHs. And especially if you're willing to let us look backwards for the last few decades, and include even small purchases.

But maybe I'm just guessing high.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

You worried that we're all just keyboard warriors who love to pontificate without actually ever having experienced the activity in question?

I would guess that most people here have bought at least a card or two at auction. Particularly if you're willing to cast a wide net and include eBay and all of the multiplicity of the various AHs. And especially if you're willing to let us look backwards for the last few decades, and include even small purchases.

But maybe I'm just guessing high.

I believe a large majority of these group buys cards/consign cards in AHs. Or at least bids in AHs.

AHs drive the card market. They drive VCP, they drive interest, they drive everything.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Buyer collusion technically is unlawful.

Then I have never once done it. Now if it wasn't illegal the answer would be yes all the time. I collect some silly rare items and knowing and talking with the other top collectors is usually a good thing I would imagine.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by raulus

You worried that we're all just keyboard warriors who love to pontificate without actually ever having experienced the activity in question?.

I am not worried. Nor do I mean “all”. But otherwise, a hard yes.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not worried. Nor do I mean “all”. But otherwise, a hard yes.

Maybe Leon could create a separate poll for high-rollers? The sample will be small, but it'll help cull out the people whose opinions don't matter.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by raulus

Thanks Greg!

I've been waiting for just such a handy decision tree to help me to navigate these sticky situations.

Straw man of all straw men

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Maybe Leon could create a separate poll for high-rollers? The sample will be small, but it'll help cull out the people whose opinions don't matter.

+1

[UKCardGuy]

I don't think there's anything wrong with talking to friends where you have similar interests. If we're going to be going after the same lot, we'll probably still bid but sometimes the same card is available in different auctions. People might be inclined to choose another auction, if a friend is going to be bidding on an item and there are alternatives. IMO that's consumer choice...

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

-
If it is a collector friend where our interests overlap we probably have discussed it prior to the close of auction and decided who would go after it and who would lay off. We usually take turns on who gets the hammer, you get this one this time and I'll get the next one next time. One of the best parts of the hobby is helping each other with our collections.

Nothing worse than two friends running each other up if it can be avoided.
-

Exceptions exist of course. If there is something on my "must have" (ridiculously short list) - all bets are off - would likely have the conversation anyway, expressing my interest and trying to get my friends to back off.

Most stuff I'm not that attached and as Phil said - take turns with guys I know going after it.

[brianp-beme]

I have decided to not vote in this poll, because by voting, I would ultimately affect the final outcome of the poll.

Brian

[Leon]

All men are created equal. Some are more equal than others.

All opinions matter. (you can quote me)

I applaud success and love to see the high value cards posted on the forum. I also like to see the lower priced items too, which generally fall into my collecting habits anyway. I enjoy stuff we don't see every day more than stuff we do see routinely. I mean, my fave 3 cards are ubiquitous in the hobby but still, I like the obscure.

Back to the point, It sounds like more of a poll on which members have bid with AH's, ebay, other?....I think the percentage would be very, very high....

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Maybe Leon could create a separate poll for high-rollers? The sample will be small, but it'll help cull out the people whose opinions don't matter.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Leon

And you have your eye on a few things you really want. You know a few other collector-friends that go after the same stuff. Do you discuss it with them?

If I really want the item(s) in question, no. I generally mute my phone, get some instrumental music playing, and go after the item(s) in isolation.

If the items are not on my want list, I have no problem discussing the auction with someone else.

Case in point - there's a non-sport auction ending next weekend. I have a friend who collects Spider-Man. I don't. I've made him aware of the auction and encouraged him to register. I have bids in the auction, just not on any of those items.

If I thought he and I would wind up bidding on the same things, I likely would not have brought it up.

[Leon]

I am pretty much the same way.

Interestingly, the poll is still almost 50/50 for yes and no....

Originally Posted by Eric72

If I really want the item(s) in question, no. I generally mute my phone, get some instrumental music playing, and go after the item(s) in isolation.

If the items are not on my want list, I have no problem discussing the auction with someone else.

Case in point - there's a non-sport auction ending next weekend. I have a friend who collects Spider-Man. I don't. I've made him aware of the auction and encouraged him to register. I have bids in the auction, just not on any of those items.

If I thought he and I would wind up bidding on the same things, I likely would not have brought it up.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Yes, Eric makes a good point. If I have no personal or financial interest in an auction listing and know someone who would, sure, I'll pass it on. I'm appreciative of the same, just as I could understand if someone wouldn't want to discuss something of mutual interest, and vice versa.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Buyer collusion technically is unlawful.

I'm guessing you're just bringing that up because there are some laws regarding that topic. I wasn't aware of that.

I've talked to hobby buddies that I know are looking for certain cards and I just refrain from bidding on those cards because I'd rather see my collecting buddy get it for a reasonable price. If there are other bidders, then they'll bid it up. It just wouldn't be me bidding it up. What's the harm in that? It's my choice.
It would be interesting to see someone try to prove that type of collusion.

I think I get it, but it's not like shill bidding.