Poll - Greatest Living Player

aro13 · #1 06-28-2024, 04:23 PM

"I know this is a thread where ascertainable facts are an annoyance, but I can never resist the use of provable facts to support an argument."

"Quote:
Originally Posted by aro13 View Post

He was a very good pitcher up until 1961 who happened to pitch in a lousy home park in the Coliseum.
Koufax posted an ERA+ of 100 through 1960. He performed at exactly league average, not "very good".

Koufax was very good up until 1961 and then became otherworldly - he just happened to pitch in the LA Coliseum with it's 253 foot left field line.

In 1961 on the road Koufax had a 2.77 era and more than a strikeout an inning. In 1960 Koufax on the road Koufax had a 3.00 era and had 126 strikeouts in 105 innings. Those are stats of a very good pitcher. Had he pitched his home games anywhere but the Coliseum no one would have said he learned to control his stuff in 1962. In 1962 his era on the road was 3.53 and he struck out 98 men in 81 innings. But he also happened to move into Dodger Stadium that year and put up a 1.75 era there. Koufax was already a very good pitcher in 1960, all that happened in 1962 was that he switched from a horrible pitchers park to a great one and in 1963 the strike zone was enlarged. It wasn't some great devine intervention or the words of a backup catcher.

G1911 · #2 06-28-2024, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

"I know this is a thread where ascertainable facts are an annoyance, but I can never resist the use of provable facts to support an argument."

"Quote:
Originally Posted by aro13 View Post

He was a very good pitcher up until 1961 who happened to pitch in a lousy home park in the Coliseum.
Koufax posted an ERA+ of 100 through 1960. He performed at exactly league average, not "very good".

Koufax was very good up until 1961 and then became otherworldly - he just happened to pitch in the LA Coliseum with it's 253 foot left field line.

In 1961 on the road Koufax had a 2.77 era and more than a strikeout an inning. In 1960 Koufax on the road Koufax had a 3.00 era and had 126 strikeouts in 105 innings. Those are stats of a very good pitcher. Had he pitched his home games anywhere but the Coliseum no one would have said he learned to control his stuff in 1962. In 1962 his era on the road was 3.53 and he struck out 98 men in 81 innings. But he also happened to move into Dodger Stadium that year and put up a 1.75 era there. Koufax was already a very good pitcher in 1960, all that happened in 1962 was that he switched from a horrible pitchers park to a great one and in 1963 the strike zone was enlarged. It wasn't some great devine intervention or the words of a backup catcher.

Again, he was factually not "very good" until 1961 - he performed literally at the league average until 1961. I have said not a single word about divine intervention or a backup catcher, I corrected a demonstrably false claim about his career through 1960 that stats after 1960 are utterly irrelevant too.

EDIT: ERA+ is park adjusted, which is why it was used over ERA.

aro13 · #3 06-28-2024, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, he was factually not "very good" until 1961 - he performed literally at the league average until 1961. I have said not a single word about divine intervention or a backup catcher, I corrected a demonstrably false claim about his career through 1960 that stats after 1960 are utterly irrelevant too.

Huh? You're using ERA+ without understanding that Koufax had a huge disadvantage pitching in the Coliseum. Take out his coliseum numbers and his ERA+ changes to 30% above average. That's a very good pitcher. His road numbers were literally no different from 1960 to 1966. He was a very good pitcher in 1960 and 1961.

G1911 · #4 06-28-2024, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

Huh? You're using ERA+ without understanding that Koufax had a huge disadvantage pitching in the Coliseum. Take out his coliseum numbers and his ERA+ changes to 30% above average. That's a very good pitcher. His road numbers were literally no different from 1960 to 1966. He was a very good pitcher in 1960 and 1961.

ERA+ accounts for park. You made the claim that Koufax was very good through 1960. Your new argument now is that was very good in 1960 and 1961. Your original claim as quoted was and is demonstrably false. Your new version may not be.

aro13 · #5 06-28-2024, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

ERA+ accounts for park. You made the claim that Koufax was very good through 1960. Your new argument now is that was very good in 1960 and 1961. Your original claim as quoted was and is demonstrably false. Your new version may not be.

All I said was Koufax was very good up until 1961 and then starting in 1962 he was great. ERA + accounts for park, but not for the extreme differences in parks for various pitchers. The same way OPS+ doesn't account for the huge advantage some players had playing in Fenway Park or Coors Field.

G1911 · #6 06-28-2024, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

All I said was Koufax was very good up until 1961 and then starting in 1962 he was great. ERA + accounts for park, but not for the extreme differences in parks for various pitchers. The same way OPS+ doesn't account for the huge advantage some players had playing in Fenway Park or Coors Field.

He performed at the league average level until 1961. That is not �very good.�

aro13 · #7 06-28-2024, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

He performed at the league average level until 1961. That is not �very good.�

You're using one statistic that doesn't accurately reflect how well he pitched. But if you think he was average until 1962 and then suddenly became the best pitcher ever, that's fine.

packs · #8 06-28-2024, 05:07 PM

A-Rod did win two MVPs in New York and he came up big in the postseason in 2009, but my memories of his time on the team were mostly of a guy who seemed to be very good when it didn't always matter and had a tendency to disappear when it did.

I wouldn't say Jeter was better than A-Rod when you're talking about stats or even natural ability, but he is someone most Yankees fans have always seen as a guy you could count on to come up in a big spot. He also won a WS MVP to back it up. I think that counts for something even if it's hard to show with stats.

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest living player today?
Ronald Acuna Jr	1	0.24%
Johnny Bench	16	3.85%
Mookie Betts	0	0%
Barry Bonds	116	27.88%
Steve Carlton	0	0%
Roger Clemens	2	0.48%
Ken Griifey Jr	38	9.13%
Rickey Henderson	27	6.49%
Randy Johnson	3	0.72%
Sandy Koufax	52	12.50%
Greg Maddux	7	1.68%
Pedro Martinez	5	1.20%
Shohei Ohtani	18	4.33%
Albert Pujols	16	3.85%
Cal Ripken Jr	5	1.20%
Alex Rodriguez	0	0%
Pete Rose	39	9.38%
Nolan Ryan	34	8.17%
Mike Schmidt	17	4.09%
Ichiro Suzuki	7	1.68%
Mike Trout	1	0.24%
Other	12	2.88%
Voters: 416. You may not vote on this poll

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