Safeguards at shows

JustinD · #1 07-11-2024, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

SteveB- Im afraid I disagree completely with your remark that showing ID to a show employee, would be like giving a Christmas list to thieves. The show employer/ID person is the least of someones worries at a card show. And a name and photo that matches the attendee, isnt vital or sensitive information. I get it that some people just dont want others to know who they are- even when they are legitimate in their attendance. I also know that resistance to something so basic is exactly the kind of thing that makes it difficult to provide the better security most people want. It wont come without cost. The question the individual would need to answer within, is if showing a photo ID is actually a cost. Trent King

I have to understand Steve's position here. The likely level of security for this documentation would be at an amateur's level. A low level hacker would likely be able to access if in the odd case they were unlikely to buy access to the information from a low paid security or data employee of the event. Thus providing not just names and photos, but home addresses of thousands of collectors that more than likely have collectables on premise. Let's be realistic, without documenting the license information in some way what does it really do at all? Are the weekend employees at the door of the National going to be able to memorize the information of 10s of thousands of visitors? It would need to be on a database for reference or it's complete waste of time...and that is a goldmine for information sales. The promoters would sell that attendee list to every auction house in the hobby the next week and then leave another million security holes.

I am sure I'll get massacred for even bringing it up, but if a huge percentage of the country is voting to state that simply asking for a federal or state photo ID to prove you can legally vote or even are who you say you are is somehow way over the line. What is the slightest chance that you can legally ask and document identification to enter a baseball card show if challenged?

Rich Klein · #2 07-11-2024, 10:29 AM

A couple of notes. I can tell you that I (we) spent $55 per hour to have an Plano Police Officer on site during our synagogue show right after the Allen Outlet shooting. And that was a small 20 table show and we absorbed all the costs because of the short notice to dealers/customers. We could afford that cost because since I was not paying rent for the room we had some extra financial room.

After 10/7 we now have security at any our synagogue (including the card show) events. Better to be safe than sorry. But there is a real cost and we're lucky as a show we could absorb those costs. Not every promoter/table holder could absorb the true costs of extra security

I forgot to add we now require everyone to sign in to our show. I have not yet asked for ID's (I do know many of the people who attend) but that's also a safety issue for our show and I suspect many other shows as well. Has to do with liability. Many years ago I was giving a quick tour of the Beckett building to two very trustworthy people and they insisted on signing in to our guest list. Why? If something happened as they were not signed in I would be responsible. If something occured then Beckett would be responsible. it's actually protects the promoter to have sign ins. I wonder if we're ever going to get to that point at shows.

ClementeFanOh · #3 07-11-2024, 11:13 AM

JustinD- first of all, I won’t massacre you

The reality is that people are voluntarily attending card shows (or not attending). If a person comes to the conclusion that showing a driver’s license is somehow a security risk, then they can opt out of that show. I’ve never organized a card show, so I haven’t given a ton of thought to how show handlers would treat the information. Maybe matching the person’s face with the ID is good enough. Maybe the ticket taker(s) simply write “Trent King Ohio” on a legal pad, then the next attendee’s name and so on. Ohio Driver licenses don’t even list the person’s SS number, so that’s out. I mean, if people don’t like the idea of strangers at a show stealing their stuff, the idea of making people prove their identity seems like a decent step in the right direction. One thing is for sure- hesitation or reluctance to enhance security favors the bad guys. Trent King

jayshum · #4 07-11-2024, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

JustinD- first of all, I won�t massacre you

The reality is that people are voluntarily attending card shows (or not attending). If a person comes to the conclusion that showing a driver�s license is somehow a security risk, then they can opt out of that show. I�ve never organized a card show, so I haven�t given a ton of thought to how show handlers would treat the information. Maybe matching the person�s face with the ID is good enough. Maybe the ticket taker(s) simply write �Trent King Ohio� on a legal pad, then the next attendee�s name and so on. Ohio Driver licenses don�t even list the person�s SS number, so that�s out. I mean, if people don�t like the idea of strangers at a show stealing their stuff, the idea of making people prove their identity seems like a decent step in the right direction. One thing is for sure- hesitation or reluctance to enhance security favors the bad guys. Trent King

If the purpose of showing IDs is to have a list of possible suspects when a theft occurs, then more information would need to be recorded than just a name and a state. There are a lot of John Smiths out there so at least an address would be needed as well to make the list useful in any way. Unfortunately, it probably doesn't take much for someone to get a fake ID to show so if potential criminals have one, the list becomes useless.

Johnny630 · #5 07-11-2024, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

If the purpose of showing IDs is to have a list of possible suspects when a theft occurs, then more information would need to be recorded than just a name and a state. There are a lot of John Smiths out there so at least an address would be needed as well to make the list useful in any way. Unfortunately, it probably doesn't take much for someone to get a fake ID to show so if potential criminals have one, the list becomes useless.

It's a start and a very good cost effective start if you ask me. You can't have it all or both ways but you can take small little security measurements with limited costs involved such as this. This is just me but fine with producing a photo Id at shows.

Steve_NY · #6 07-11-2024, 12:05 PM

I contend that the National should show the way for other smaller shows. The National should set the bar on security. Is that too much to ask of them?

It's still up to booth holders to maintain their own security during and after the show.

I prefer cash payments but in the likely event that I will get checks or PayPal, at that time I require valid picture ID. Holding an item for a few days until checks clear is definitely a requirement. If the buyer balks at that, then it's time to be suspicious of their intentions.

Any other thoughts on security and how to handle that during and after the show closes for the evening?

parkplace33 · #7 07-11-2024, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_NY

I contend that the National should show the way for other smaller shows. The National should set the bar on security. Is that too much to ask of them?

It's still up to booth holders to maintain their own security during and after the show.

I prefer cash payments but in the likely event that I will get checks or PayPal, at that time I require valid picture ID. Holding an item for a few days until checks clear is definitely a requirement. If the buyer balks at that, then it's time to be suspicious of their intentions.

Any other thoughts on security and how to handle that during and after the show closes for the evening?

I know we have some National board members on this forum. Would love to hear their thoughts.

Steve, my opinion, you need to set yourself up for success.

parkplace33 · #8 07-11-2024, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It's a start and a very good cost effective start if you ask me. You can't have it all or both ways but you can take small little security measurements with limited costs involved such as this. This is just me but fine with producing a photo Id at shows.

Concur, especially at larger shows.

Look at jewelry stores. While most don�t ask for ID, you better believe you are being watched the whole time.

Rich Klein · #9 07-11-2024, 12:36 PM

What liability is there in asking for IDS?

None. I'm just trying to have as little friction as possible for our guests. If I'm asked to verify with ID's (I'll bring that up to our brotherhood board and then the synagogue board) I sure will ask for ID's

If I know the person I can skip the ID part but if I don't or not sure I can do that then.

Rich

Musashi · #10 07-11-2024, 12:36 PM

I see all this conversation about how requiring photo ID's will deter criminals, and am wondering if I'm the only delinquent here who purchased alcohol before they turned 21...

notfast · #11 07-11-2024, 12:44 PM

Producing and showing ID is pointless unless the information is being stored. That’s where the liability would come in to play. Who’s is keeping this info? What are they doing with it? What happens if there is a breach?

The solution that is most reasonable is more visible cameras and more visible security. These deter the majority of criminals.

Then everyone needs to be responsible for security of their own space.

One guy working the booth should never happen unless someone is going to the bathroom or grabbing food to bring back. Need multiple workers always.

Never hand cards to more than one person at a time. Make sure showcases are locked and back stock is secure. This could be as simple as having a case with a handle bike locked to a table leg or a standalone safe. Even simple deterrents such as moving cash box/envelope location often are usually not considered. I could go on and on. Nothing is incredibly difficult its just that most people don’t have the experience of dealing with people essentially trying to shoplift.

The majority of people (including cops and paid security officers) do not have the experience needed to prevent retail theft except by their existing and showing presence…which it’s important so this should always be the top priority of all shows.

parkplace33 · #12 07-11-2024, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

A couple of notes. I can tell you that I (we) spent $55 per hour to have an Plano Police Officer on site during our synagogue show right after the Allen Outlet shooting. And that was a small 20 table show and we absorbed all the costs because of the short notice to dealers/customers. We could afford that cost because since I was not paying rent for the room we had some extra financial room.

After 10/7 we now have security at any our synagogue (including the card show) events. Better to be safe than sorry. But there is a real cost and we're lucky as a show we could absorb those costs. Not every promoter/table holder could absorb the true costs of extra security

I forgot to add we now require everyone to sign in to our show. I have not yet asked for ID's (I do know many of the people who attend) but that's also a safety issue for our show and I suspect many other shows as well. Has to do with liability. Many years ago I was giving a quick tour of the Beckett building to two very trustworthy people and they insisted on signing in to our guest list. Why? If something happened as they were not signed in I would be responsible. If something occured then Beckett would be responsible. it's actually protects the promoter to have sign ins. I wonder if we're ever going to get to that point at shows.

What liability is there in asking for IDS?

jayshum · #13 07-11-2024, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

I have to understand Steve's position here. The likely level of security for this documentation would be at an amateur's level. A low level hacker would likely be able to access if in the odd case they were unlikely to buy access to the information from a low paid security or data employee of the event. Thus providing not just names and photos, but home addresses of thousands of collectors that more than likely have collectables on premise. Let's be realistic, without documenting the license information in some way what does it really do at all? Are the weekend employees at the door of the National going to be able to memorize the information of 10s of thousands of visitors? It would need to be on a database for reference or it's complete waste of time...and that is a goldmine for information sales. The promoters would sell that attendee list to every auction house in the hobby the next week and then leave another million security holes.

I am sure I'll get massacred for even bringing it up, but if a huge percentage of the country is voting to state that simply asking for a federal or state photo ID to prove you can legally vote or even are who you say you are is somehow way over the line. What is the slightest chance that you can legally ask and document identification to enter a baseball card show if challenged?

As long as you weren't discriminating and were asking everyone for ID, I'm not sure why it would be illegal. I think the main issue would be many people being unwilling to provide it and therefore not come to the show.

Kco · #14 07-12-2024, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

I have to understand Steve's position here. The likely level of security for this documentation would be at an amateur's level. A low level hacker would likely be able to access if in the odd case they were unlikely to buy access to the information from a low paid security or data employee of the event. Thus providing not just names and photos, but home addresses of thousands of collectors that more than likely have collectables on premise. Let's be realistic, without documenting the license information in some way what does it really do at all? Are the weekend employees at the door of the National going to be able to memorize the information of 10s of thousands of visitors? It would need to be on a database for reference or it's complete waste of time...and that is a goldmine for information sales. The promoters would sell that attendee list to every auction house in the hobby the next week and then leave another million security holes.

I am sure I'll get massacred for even bringing it up, but if a huge percentage of the country is voting to state that simply asking for a federal or state photo ID to prove you can legally vote or even are who you say you are is somehow way over the line. What is the slightest chance that you can legally ask and document identification to enter a baseball card show if challenged?

Considering that tickets, at least to the National, are bought via CC and have names attached to them, this point is wildly overblown fear and elaborate.

Additionally people are petrified of handing over an ID to match names on the ticket but will readily do the same to purchase alcohol, pickup tickets from will call at sporting or other events, visit most buildings / workplaces (at least in most businesses and buildings nowadays). Additionally any ticket bought ahead would have billing attached to it. All someone checking ID needs to do is mark the ticket buyer there and that their tickets have been picked up, they don't need to input all ID info again.

Here is a newsflash, the paranoia of people to not want to hand over ID to enter a show is actually funny. People use ID virtually daily to do hundreds of different things. You'll show ti to prove who you are to fly, drive, buy alcohol, cigarettes. You'll tap a phone or CC reader with a chip card in 2.5 seconds without thinking twice. Guess what, ALL that data gets stored and is identifiable in the exact same manner. Also there is far more sensitive data embedded in both those devices.

If someone wants to steal they are going to do their best to do so, using due diligence and not flaunting big dollar items or large blocks of cash unnecessarily is a big key to all of this.

Of course, if your expensive pieces and big dollar items are in a display case for sale you're going to be openly displaying what you have to anyone walking by. Insure yourself accordingly,

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