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  #1  
Old 07-17-2024, 11:27 AM
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cgjackson222 cgjackson222 is offline
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Originally Posted by jayshum View Post
Garvey led Wynn in hits and batting average by a lot and RBIs by 3 in 1974. Wynn had 11 more home runs and 9 more runs scored. Garvey was also a gold glove winner that year so he was considered to be a good fielder (apparently still up for debate now). Those were the stats considered most important back then. People weren't looking at OBP and OPS or other advanced metrics. Based on those stats, it's not surprising Garvey won the MVP over Wynn.
Okay, but I am not sure the purpose of this thread is to make excuses for poor decisions/reconstruct the reasons for the poor decisions, that occurred back in the day. I am not at all surprised Garvey won the MVP (for all the reasons you have provided and more), I am just saying he didn't deserve to win the MVP for a variety of reasons.

Yes, it was often customary to hand over the MVP to a player on a team that won a lot of games and had a lot of hits. But that doesn't make it the right decision.

Last edited by cgjackson222; 07-17-2024 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 07-17-2024, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cgjackson222 View Post
Okay, but I am not sure the purpose of this thread is to make excuses for poor decisions/reconstruct the reasons for the poor decisions, that occurred back in the day. I am not at all surprised Garvey won the MVP (for all the reasons you have provided and more), I am just saying he didn't deserve to win the MVP for a variety of reasons.

Yes, it was often customary to hand over the MVP to a player on a team that won a lot of games and had a lot of hits. But that doesn't make it the right decision.
It is an opinion. Some people value batting average and RBI more than OBP especially for a middle of the lineup guy. The team that wins is the one that scores the most runs, not the one that gets the most runners on base, or has the highest OPS+ or WAR. At some point, real production should trump theoretical stats.
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Old 07-17-2024, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
It is an opinion. Some people value batting average and RBI more than OBP especially for a middle of the lineup guy. The team that wins is the one that scores the most runs, not the one that gets the most runners on base, or has the highest OPS+ or WAR. At some point, real production should trump theoretical stats.

I think it could also be argued, that the team that scores the most runs, almost always, ALSO got the most runners on base, and has the highest OPS+ and WAR rates for their players.....or close to it, at least.
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Old 07-17-2024, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
It is an opinion. Some people value batting average and RBI more than OBP especially for a middle of the lineup guy. The team that wins is the one that scores the most runs, not the one that gets the most runners on base, or has the highest OPS+ or WAR. At some point, real production should trump theoretical stats.
Okay, but I am not just talking about "theoretical stats." Mike Schmidt led the League in HRs (15 more than Garvey) and had more RBIs and Runs than Steve Garvey. Just because LA won a lot of games, doesn't mean you should just hand the trophy over to Garvey when you have Jim Wynn on their team. Let's not forget that LA also had the Cy Young winner and 2 of the other top 4 Cy Young winners on the team. So its not like Garvey was a one-man show.

The Reds finished 4 games behind the Dodges for 2nd in the NL West. You could have easily given the MVP award to Johnny Bench, who had one of the best years of his career, with 33 HRs and a league leading 129 RBIs, while playing a Gold Glove catcher.

Are you seriously arguing that Steve Garvey deserved the MVP in '74?

Last edited by cgjackson222; 07-17-2024 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 07-17-2024, 03:20 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Garvey did not lead the league in a single offensive category in 1974. It’s not hypothetical stats that show this was a bad call. There’s not a single stat that supports the choice.
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Old 07-17-2024, 03:40 PM
Carter08 Carter08 is offline
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Garvey did not lead the league in a single offensive category in 1974. It’s not hypothetical stats that show this was a bad call. There’s not a single stat that supports the choice.
Agreed. Vote just shows that, as someone pointed out, there used to be a huge emphasis on whether the player was on a division winning team. Dodgers won their division and Phils were 8 games back. Doesn’t help that Schmidt was a relatively new name in 1974. But yeah, by just about any metric, he was better.
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Old 08-01-2024, 04:55 PM
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Two of the least deserving MVPs ever have to be Roger Peckinpaugh in 1925 and Marty Marion in 1944.

Yes, they both played a valuable position in shortstop, and both played for pennant winners, but their hitting was abysmal, and neither was the best player on their team.

Peckinpaugh's slash line was .294/.367/.379 with 4 HRs and 64 RBIs. His OPS+ was 91 and WAR was a measly 2.7. Amazingly, he only appeared in 126 games. About 20 people deserved the MVP more than he did. Certainly Harry Heilmann and Al Simmons were more deserving. Heilmann's slash line was .393/.457/.569 with 13 HRs, 134 RBIs and an OPS+ of 161. Simmons' slashed .387/.419/.599 with 24 HRs, 129 RBIs and OPS+ of 149. Also, Simmons had more than twice as many hits with his leading 253 to Peckinpaugh's paltry 124 hits.

Marty Marion's slash line in 1944 was .267/.324/.362 with 6 HRs, 63 RBIs and an OPS+ of 90. His teammate, a guy named Stan Musial slashed .347/.440/.549 with 12 HRs and 94 RBIs. Musial had a League leading 197 hits to Marion's 135 and had an OPS+ of 174. Yet Musial finished 4th in the voting.

Apparently it was customary to just hand over the MVP to the shortstop of the pennant winner, regardless how awful he was at hitting.

Last edited by cgjackson222; 08-01-2024 at 06:59 PM.
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