Warren Spahn - Why No Hobby Love?

pclpads · #1 08-31-2024, 02:48 AM

Like so many of his time, he had the misfortune to have signed with the Braves instead of New Yawk.

Hankphenom · #2 08-31-2024, 10:30 AM

Monster talent, his numbers a throwback to an earlier era. I'm on his right here, Kevin Keating on his left. Kevin got very close to Spahnie and would accompany him to Cooperstown every year. He was with Warren at his ranch the night he passed away.

Carter08 · #3 08-31-2024, 10:59 AM

Great picture. Seemed like a pretty humble guy for being a war hero and an all time great.

raulus · #4 08-31-2024, 11:40 AM

Just be glad his stuff can still be had for a relative bargain so that you can load up without breaking the bank.

I used to complain that Mays got no love due to his previous extreme discount to Mantle. Now that the gap has shrunk, it means that I can�t pick up a lot of the stuff that I covet, which is a major buzzkill.

Hankphenom · #5 08-31-2024, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Great picture. Seemed like a pretty humble guy for being a war hero and an all time great.

I've heard that hearing bullets whizzing by your head and artillery shells bursting all around you makes you humble pretty quickly.

ooo-ribay · #6 08-31-2024, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pclpads

Like so many of his time, he had the misfortune to have signed with the Braves instead of New Yawk.

I think you hit on something there, in regard to collectibility status.

71buc · #7 08-31-2024, 08:15 PM

Warren was the Frank Robinson of pitchers.

obcbeatle · #8 09-01-2024, 11:29 AM

"Spahn & Sain and pray for rain", or something like that

Being a Braves/Giants collector I have quite a few Spahn's. Waddell & Koufax had unhittable stuff. Spahn had great stuff AND endurance. I really need to read the Spahn/Marichal game book, and they both had a huge leg kicks!!

Topnotchsy · #9 09-01-2024, 08:18 PM

I think there are many factors that come to play, though I'm not a big believer in the NY factor. There aren't exactly a ton of huge value pitchers from NY either.

Spahn had an extremely impressive career and a more impressive life, but he isn't the profile of a pitcher who becomes highly collected. While he did league the league in K's for 4 of his 21 seasons, he never K'd 200 in a season and his career total is not 2583, which is nice but not crazy. His K/9 for his career is 4.4, which is extremely low.

Additionally, while he was often a very good pitcher, he was only rarely an elite pitcher. His ERA+ was consistently in the 115-125 range, which is solid but not special. He had 2 seasons (1947 and 1953) when he was absolutely elite. He won just 1 Cy Young award (in 1957 which ironically was one of his solid, but not great seasons) and much of his value is in the sheer number of innings he pitcherd. His 162 game avg BWAR is 4.4 which reflects a very solid, but not remarkable pitcher.

Spahn's consistency and longevity resulted in some incredible career numbers, but his 119 ERA+ is the same as Red Faber, Ron Guidry, Bobby Shantz and Bob Lemon, some very good pitchers, but not all-time greats.

The pitchers who get collected are those who put up elite, elite numbers and are 'must watch' baseball. Spahn was boringly very good for a very very long time.

Hankphenom · #10 09-02-2024, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I think there are many factors that come to play, though I'm not a big believer in the NY factor. There aren't exactly a ton of huge value pitchers from NY either. Spahn had an extremely impressive career and a more impressive life, but he isn't the profile of a pitcher who becomes highly collected. While he did league the league in K's for 4 of his 21 seasons, he never K'd 200 in a season and his career total is not 2583, which is nice but not crazy. His K/9 for his career is 4.4, which is extremely low.
Additionally, while he was often a very good pitcher, he was only rarely an elite pitcher. His ERA+ was consistently in the 115-125 range, which is solid but not special. He had 2 seasons (1947 and 1953) when he was absolutely elite. He won just 1 Cy Young award (in 1957 which ironically was one of his solid, but not great seasons) and much of his value is in the sheer number of innings he pitched. His 162 game avg BWAR is 4.4 which reflects a very solid, but not remarkable pitcher. Spahn's consistency and longevity resulted in some incredible career numbers, but his 119 ERA+ is the same as Red Faber, Ron Guidry, Bobby Shantz and Bob Lemon, some very good pitchers, but not all-time greats. The pitchers who get collected are those who put up elite, elite numbers and are 'must watch' baseball. Spahn was boringly very good for a very very long time.

I'm sorry, but if these "modern" metrics of yours add up to the conclusion that Spahn wasn't a LOT better than Red Faber, Ron Guidry, or Bob Lemon, you need to go back to the drawing board. The guy won 20 games or more 13 times, he pitched 5,200 innings despite missing three prime years for military service, he completed 362 games of 665 started, won 363 of them including 63 shutouts (both records for lefties) He was an All-Star 17 times, far and away the most for pitchers. Not enough Ks for you, ERAs not low enough? Maybe he just knew how to pitch, and didn't mind letting his fielders do some work or putting some runners on base until it was time to bear down. Not to denigrate the pitchers you named or any others you might want to lump him in with, but he was head and shoulders above them because 1) he was a prodigious winner for an incredibly long time, 2) his numbers are nothing less than staggering, especially considering he was already 25 when he came up, and 3) oh, by the way, he was a terrific hitter and fielder. Spahnie just "very good?" Give me a break.

Scott Garner · #11 09-02-2024, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm sorry, but if these "modern" metrics of yours add up to the conclusion that Spahn wasn't a LOT better than Red Faber, Ron Guidry, or Bob Lemon, you need to go back to the drawing board. The guy won 20 games or more 13 times, he pitched 5,200 innings despite missing three prime years for military service, he completed 362 games of 665 started, won 363 of them including 63 shutouts (both records for lefties) He was an All-Star 17 times, far and away the most for pitchers. Not enough Ks for you, ERAs not low enough? Maybe he just knew how to pitch, and didn't mind letting his fielders do some work or putting some runners on base until it was time to bear down. Not to denigrate the pitchers you named or any others you might want to lump him in with, but he was head and shoulders above them because 1) he was a prodigious winner for an incredibly long time, 2) his numbers are nothing less than staggering, especially considering he was already 25 when he came up, and 3) oh, by the way, he was a terrific hitter and fielder. Spahnie just "very good?" Give me a break.

Hank,
Sorry, I missed your post. Exactly...

Topnotchsy · #12 09-02-2024, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm sorry, but if these "modern" metrics of yours add up to the conclusion that Spahn wasn't a LOT better than Red Faber, Ron Guidry, or Bob Lemon, you need to go back to the drawing board. The guy won 20 games or more 13 times, he pitched 5,200 innings despite missing three prime years for military service, he completed 362 games of 665 started, won 363 of them including 63 shutouts (both records for lefties) He was an All-Star 17 times, far and away the most for pitchers. Not enough Ks for you, ERAs not low enough? Maybe he just knew how to pitch, and didn't mind letting his fielders do some work or putting some runners on base until it was time to bear down. Not to denigrate the pitchers you named or any others you might want to lump him in with, but he was head and shoulders above them because 1) he was a prodigious winner for an incredibly long time, 2) his numbers are nothing less than staggering, especially considering he was already 25 when he came up, and 3) oh, by the way, he was a terrific hitter and fielder. Spahnie just "very good?" Give me a break.

You are missing my point. I have zero intention of denigrating Spahn, who was an excellent pitcher for a very long time. I was simply expressing why he does not get a ton of hobby attention.

To paraphrase a famous advertisement, "collectors dig the flash." Being consistently good for a long time does not make a player valuable in the hobby. Collectors prefer a brief fireworks explosion than extended consistency. Think Koufax over Spahn, even though for his career, Spahn was way more valuable.

The fact he did not have a huge number of K's is not an indictment of his pitching ability. It's a recognition that K's get attention. It's one of the reasons that Bob Feller finished higher than Thorton Lee in the MVP voting in 1941, despite Lee having a much lower ERA.

You refer to my use of 'modern metrics.' Don't get caught up in the metric. I'm using it to emphasize a point. ERA+ looks at how much better a player's ERA is from the league average. It is a metric that easily translates into attention. In 2002, when Pedro Martinez has an ERA of 2.22 and the league average was above 4, people paid attention. In 1968, when the average ERA was under 3, a 2.22 ERA was nice but not attracting a ton of attention.

I did not intend to compare Spahn to Red Faber, Ron Guidry, or Bob Lemon except to highlight that he was not generally a very dominant pitcher. This remains accurate, but when you look at his career, none of those are remotely good comps. I was highlighting that his actual dominance is in fact similar to players who are lesser players.

A different Braves pitcher is probably a better comp. Tom Glavine won 300+ games, won 20 or more 5 times in an era where that was much rarer. And had an ERA+ for his career of 118, almost identical to Spahn. I don't think there is anyone out there who believes that Glavine deserves way more hobby attention.

Additionally, the hobby is heavily biased towards players who started young, since fans can project their HOF trajectory from early on and jump on. Spahn started his career late and had just 108 wins by age 30. This does not make his career win total less impressive, it arguably makes it more impressive, but it was probably not until he was 37-38 that people viewed him as a HOFer. Again, not a statement about his value as a baseball player, but a factor in the hobby.

I'm trying to emphasize two points:
1) Spahn's value in the hobby is lower than his value as a baseball player, because he was quickly excellent for a long time, but was not flashy and did not have the factors (such as starting at a young age, K'ing a lot of poeple, having unworldly seasons like Koufax etc) that get attention.

2)Spahn was an elite pitcher, but he is not in the same league as Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson or Tom Seaver. He never achieved their levels of dominance

Scott Garner · #13 09-02-2024, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I think there are many factors that come to play, though I'm not a big believer in the NY factor. There aren't exactly a ton of huge value pitchers from NY either.

Spahn had an extremely impressive career and a more impressive life, but he isn't the profile of a pitcher who becomes highly collected. While he did league the league in K's for 4 of his 21 seasons, he never K'd 200 in a season and his career total is not 2583, which is nice but not crazy. His K/9 for his career is 4.4, which is extremely low.

Additionally, while he was often a very good pitcher, he was only rarely an elite pitcher. His ERA+ was consistently in the 115-125 range, which is solid but not special. He had 2 seasons (1947 and 1953) when he was absolutely elite. He won just 1 Cy Young award (in 1957 which ironically was one of his solid, but not great seasons) and much of his value is in the sheer number of innings he pitcherd. His 162 game avg BWAR is 4.4 which reflects a very solid, but not remarkable pitcher.

Spahn's consistency and longevity resulted in some incredible career numbers, but his 119 ERA+ is the same as Red Faber, Ron Guidry, Bobby Shantz and Bob Lemon, some very good pitchers, but not all-time greats.

The pitchers who get collected are those who put up elite, elite numbers and are 'must watch' baseball. Spahn was boringly very good for a very very long time.

Hi Jeff,
Although I agree with some of your analysis, I believe there are several noteworthy omissions that apply to Warren Spahn:

13 seasons with 20 or more wins
8 seasons leading the league in wins
363 wins is fifth All-Time in MLB
63 shutouts is #6 All-Time" in MLB
Two no-hitters thrown AFTER age 39
Lifetime ERA was a solid 3.09
Cy Young in 1957
Sporting News Pitcher of the Year 4 times 1953, 1957, 1958, 1961
.995 Fielding Average (One of best ever in the MLB)
14 x All-Star- He appeared in 7 of them
World Series Champion 1957

Carter08 · #14 09-02-2024, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Jeff,
Although I agree with some of your analysis, I believe there are several noteworthy omissions that apply to Warren Spahn:

13 seasons with 20 or more wins
8 seasons leading the league in wins
363 wins is fifth All-Time in MLB
63 shutouts is #6 All-Time" in MLB
Two no-hitters thrown AFTER age 39
Lifetime ERA was a solid 3.09
Cy Young in 1957
Sporting News Pitcher of the Year 4 times 1953, 1957, 1958, 1961
.995 Fielding Average (One of best ever in the MLB)
7 x All-Star
World Series Champion 1957

You need to double the All Star appearances to 14 lol. Plus, anyone focusing on things like strikeouts and whip need to look and see that he led the league in those categories several times. He wasn�t just some pretty good guy that could go out and rattle off pitching wins (as if that would be a bad thing).

icollectDCsports · #15 09-01-2024, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 71buc

Warren was the Frank Robinson of pitchers.

GREAT analog.

Beercan collector · #16 09-02-2024, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 71buc

Warren was the Frank Robinson of pitchers.

Yep and/or his more contemporary Stan Musial

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