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[ahmanfan]

I’m sorry, but if Ohtani hitting 3 HR’s yesterday to establish the 50/50 club doesn’t excite you, you’re hopeless.


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[FrankWakefield]

Hit and run guys from when I was a kid...

Jim Gilliam
Willie Davis
Dick Groat
Richie Allen
Pete Rose

Those guys could make contact if that's what they wanted, they could watch SS and 2B to see who was covering the bag, and they could run a ground ball through the vacated hole. Brings to mind a close quote of a fella that I considered to be about the best ballplayer... "There's not much to being a ballplayer, IF you're a ballplayer."

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Hit and run guys from when I was a kid...

Jim Gilliam
Willie Davis
Dick Groat
Richie Allen
Pete Rose

Those guys could make contact if that's what they wanted, they could watch SS and 2B to see who was covering the bag, and they could run a ground ball through the vacated hole. Brings to mind a close quote of a fella that I considered to be about the best ballplayer... "There's not much to being a ballplayer, IF you're a ballplayer."

Great list Frank, I'd posit the pre 1920 guys were all hit and run, Cobb especially. Post war Willie Mays only concentrated on moving runners.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I remember Dick Allen being a big strikeout guy, not a bat control/contact hitter guy? Looking him up now, he led the league twice and was over 100 almost every year.

[FrankWakefield]

Peter,

Wow...
Just because he struck out a lot doesn't mean that he only struck out.

My recollection is seeing him batting successfully in hit and run situations, in person. That was in the mid 60's. He could hit and run then. I saw it. But that is also when he was young and coachable. Gene Mauch survived that for a few years, and once Richie settled into being a talented big leaguer he became somewhat less manageable and developed his own sense of self determination (hardheadedness).

Instead of just grabbing a season's strike out numbers to be determinative proof of one's ability to hit and run, pick a couple of seasons, 1964 through 1967, and go to retrosheet.org, I think they'll have a game log for each of his games.

What you will find is that with a runner on first, he was less likely to strike out, and often, if he got any kind of a hit, it was most likely a single that moved the runner to third. And you'll see that he was more likely to strike out with no one on base (when he was trying to muscle a ball over the fence).

Now, when the 1970's roll around, and he became Dick Allen, I think he swung for the fences a bit more often, he was more about self instead of team, and he was not expected to hit and run as often. That was in his later years,

I'm not saying he didn't strike out a lot in those early years, he did. To some extent, in later years, he was out of the lineup more often, and his strike outs were fewer. partly because he didn't swing as wildly in later years, and partly because he was getting fewer at bats.

I saw him wearing the birds on the bat probably 7 or 8 times in 1970. The attitude had set in by then. He had the ability of generating that loud crack that comes from a ball being well hit with the bat's barrel. Or, to paraphrase, he could shatter the ozone with all of his might. I saw him with the Phillies in 1964 and 1965, and the Dodgers after he left the Cardinals. The man had bat control (when neeeded) and could hit and run.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Peter,

Wow...
Just because he struck out a lot doesn't mean that he only struck out.

My recollection is seeing him batting successfully in hit and run situations, in person. That was in the mid 60's. He could hit and run then. I saw it. But that is also when he was young and coachable. Gene Mauch survived that for a few years, and once Richie settled into being a talented big leaguer he became somewhat less manageable and developed his own sense of self determination (hardheadedness).

Instead of just grabbing a season's strike out numbers to be determinative proof of one's ability to hit and run, pick a couple of seasons, 1964 through 1967, and go to retrosheet.org, I think they'll have a game log for each of his games.

What you will find is that with a runner on first, he was less likely to strike out, and often, if he got any kind of a hit, it was most likely a single that moved the runner to third. And you'll see that he was more likely to strike out with no one on base (when he was trying to muscle a ball over the fence).

Now, when the 1970's roll around, and he became Dick Allen, I think he swung for the fences a bit more often, he was more about self instead of team, and he was not expected to hit and run as often. That was in his later years,

I'm not saying he didn't strike out a lot in those early years, he did. To some extent, in later years, he was out of the lineup more often, and his strike outs were fewer. partly because he didn't swing as wildly in later years, and partly because he was getting fewer at bats.

I saw him wearing the birds on the bat probably 7 or 8 times in 1970. The attitude had set in by then. He had the ability of generating that loud crack that comes from a ball being well hit with the bat's barrel. Or, to paraphrase, he could shatter the ozone with all of his might. I saw him with the Phillies in 1964 and 1965, and the Dodgers after he left the Cardinals. The man had bat control (when neeeded) and could hit and run.

I am sure you saw much more of him than I did so I defer to your recollection. But leaving that aside, generally speaking, wouldn't you expect a big strike out guy not to also be a great hit and run/contact guy? I guess I see your point that they aren't per se inconsistent.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Peter,

Wow...
Just because he struck out a lot doesn't mean that he only struck out.

My recollection is seeing him batting successfully in hit and run situations, in person. That was in the mid 60's. He could hit and run then. I saw it. But that is also when he was young and coachable. Gene Mauch survived that for a few years, and once Richie settled into being a talented big leaguer he became somewhat less manageable and developed his own sense of self determination (hardheadedness).

Instead of just grabbing a season's strike out numbers to be determinative proof of one's ability to hit and run, pick a couple of seasons, 1964 through 1967, and go to retrosheet.org, I think they'll have a game log for each of his games.

What you will find is that with a runner on first, he was less likely to strike out, and often, if he got any kind of a hit, it was most likely a single that moved the runner to third. And you'll see that he was more likely to strike out with no one on base (when he was trying to muscle a ball over the fence).

Now, when the 1970's roll around, and he became Dick Allen, I think he swung for the fences a bit more often, he was more about self instead of team, and he was not expected to hit and run as often. That was in his later years,

I'm not saying he didn't strike out a lot in those early years, he did. To some extent, in later years, he was out of the lineup more often, and his strike outs were fewer. partly because he didn't swing as wildly in later years, and partly because he was getting fewer at bats.

I saw him wearing the birds on the bat probably 7 or 8 times in 1970. The attitude had set in by then. He had the ability of generating that loud crack that comes from a ball being well hit with the bat's barrel. Or, to paraphrase, he could shatter the ozone with all of his might. I saw him with the Phillies in 1964 and 1965, and the Dodgers after he left the Cardinals. The man had bat control (when neeeded) and could hit and run.

Baseball Reference disagrees with you. Across all situations, he struck out basically in basically 25% of all ABs, a little less than 20% of all PAs.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by ahmanfan

I’m sorry, but if Ohtani hitting 3 HR’s yesterday to establish the 50/50 club doesn’t excite you, you’re hopeless.


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Nobody is dissing Ohtani. Just chatting about the game, hope that is ok with you.