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[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think there's a universal tendency for people as they age to think things were better in the past. If you want to see this phenomenon ask anyone over say 50 for their all time great list, it will be heavily slanted and won't have a single player from the past four decades. From my perspective, as long as they don't move the pitcher's mound or the bases, or change 4 balls and 3 strikes, it would be really hard to kill baseball.

I depends on how many you are asking for on the list. Mike Schmidt is regarded as the best 3rd baseman of all time and I have him high on my list. Bench is just outside your cutoff and is considered the greatest catcher of all time. Albert Pujols is a little lower, but with his Angel's years it is hard to put him too high. His first 12 years hold up against everyone short of Ruth. If Griffey Jr and Trout didn't get hurt, they could have been there. If Ohtani or Judge keep putting up numbers like this year, they will rise.

Part of the problem is you had a generation that got caught up in drugs. Guy like Gooden and Strawberry had the talent to be all time greats. Then you have all the steroids guys who have ruined their legacies in many people's eyes.

However, if you look at other sports, that is not the case. My top 10 list for basketball has Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan. For Football, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady with Patrick Mahomes building a resume. For Hockey, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Ovechkin and Crosby.

Maybe the best athletes are no longer choosing baseball as it is no longer the #1 sport in the US. Jackie Robinson probably plays in the NFL if was active today, Bob Gibson is probably in the NBA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I depends on how many you are asking for on the list. Mike Schmidt is regarded as the best 3rd baseman of all time and I have him high on my list. Bench is just outside your cutoff and is considered the greatest catcher of all time. Albert Pujols is a little lower, but with his Angel's years it is hard to put him too high. His first 12 years hold up against everyone short of Ruth. If Griffey Jr and Trout didn't get hurt, they could have been there. If Ohtani or Judge keep putting up numbers like this year, they will rise.

Part of the problem is you had a generation that got caught up in drugs. Guy like Gooden and Strawberry had the talent to be all time greats. Then you have all the steroids guys who have ruined their legacies in many people's eyes.

However, if you look at other sports, that is not the case. My top 10 list for basketball has Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan. For Football, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady with Patrick Mahomes building a resume. For Hockey, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Ovechkin and Crosby.

Maybe the best athletes are no longer choosing baseball as it is no longer the #1 sport in the US. Jackie Robinson probably plays in the NFL if was active today, Bob Gibson is probably in the NBA.

It's interesting that there is much more of a nostalgia bias in baseball for some reason. But I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone of a certain age who -- with the possible exception of Schmidt -- is going to put anyone from the 1980s forward on their team. Can it really be that those 4+ decades (1/3 of the history of baseball if you discount the prehistoric years LOL) didn't produce any players worthy of consideration as all time greats?

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone of a certain age who -- with the possible exception of Schmidt -- is going to put anyone from the 1980s forward on their team.

Roids tainted careers ruined this even if one believes the roids era of their careers were short compared to their careers on whole. It's not a hill I would die on to argue that any weren't juicing from day one, though.

Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and ARod are/were (whatever) legends of our 1980s+ modern era. Their performances were all-time greatness in the entire history of the game.

That leaves us with Rickey Henderson who's career is suspected by most to be clean as an all-time legend. Guys like Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux are up there, too. Albert Pujols has the counting stats to be an all-time great, but in all honesty his alarmingly big investment kept him on the field longer than his playing ability.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Roids tainted careers ruined this even if one believes the roids era of their careers were short compared to their careers on whole. It's not a hill I would die on to argue that any weren't juicing from day one, though.

Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and ARod are/were (whatever) legends of our 1980s+ modern era. Their performances were all-time greatness in the entire history of the game.

That leaves us with Rickey Henderson who's career is suspected by most to be clean as an all-time legend. Guys like Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux are up there, too. Albert Pujols has the counting stats to be an all-time great, but in all honesty his alarmingly big investment kept him on the field longer than his playing ability.

Most people's all time teams are heavily biased in favor of the first 50 years of baseball. Who doesn't have Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Hornsby, Wagner, Johnson, Young, and Mathewson on his team? That's 8 out of 12 assuming a four man rotation.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Most people's all time teams are heavily biased in favor of the first 50 years of baseball. Who doesn't have Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Hornsby, Wagner, Johnson, Young, and Mathewson on his team? That's 8 out of 12 assuming a four man rotation.

Yeah, I wouldn't argue against including any of these guys and they are all-time legends, but guys from this era are almost impossible to compare.

Cy Young is obviously a legend, but if you were picking a single season to have someone go out and pitch for you would it be Cy Young or Roger Clemens? Would that season be 250-275ip or 400-425ip? Is the pitcher expected to throw 40+ complete games? At the very least you'd have to answer those 2 questions before you would pick one even though one is obviously superior based on the stuff coming out of their arm.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Yeah, I wouldn't argue against including any of these guys and they are all-time legends, but guys from this era are almost impossible to compare.

Cy Young is obviously a legend, but if you were picking a single season to have someone go out and pitch for you would it be Cy Young or Roger Clemens? Would that season be 250-275ip or 400-425ip? Is the pitcher expected to throw 40+ complete games? At the very least you'd have to answer those 2 questions before you would pick one even though one is obviously superior based on the stuff coming out of their arm.

Our statisticians have made a great effort to neutralize stats across eras to facilitate these sorts of comparisons, but in the end, not sure it really works, and even a numbers guy like Bill James ends up with lists reflecting his biases.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's interesting that there is much more of a nostalgia bias in baseball for some reason. But I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone of a certain age who -- with the possible exception of Schmidt -- is going to put anyone from the 1980s forward on their team. Can it really be that those 4+ decades (1/3 of the history of baseball if you discount the prehistoric years LOL) didn't produce any players worthy of consideration as all time greats?

I really think it is the talent levels. My football list starts with Unitas and Brown. Basketball starts with Russell and Chamberlain. I think they pushed their sports forward like Wagner, Cobb and Ruth did for baseball. If I start my list with players who debuted with those four, my baseball list starts with Frank Robinson and includes Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Rickey Henderson, Wade Boggs, Ken Griffey Jr, Albert Pujols and Mike Trout. My top 5 pitchers are Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Greg Maddox, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez. The lists look comparable to with what you see with football and basketball.

The issue becomes when you add another 60 years for baseball with almost all of the best athletes going into that sport. The last 40 years of players for baseball becomes diluted and it looks like it does.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I really think it is the talent levels. My football list starts with Unitas and Brown. Basketball starts with Russell and Chamberlain. I think they pushed their sports forward like Wagner, Cobb and Ruth did for baseball. If I start my list with players who debuted with those four, my baseball list starts with Frank Robinson and includes Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Rickey Henderson, Wade Boggs, Ken Griffey Jr, Albert Pujols and Mike Trout. My top 5 pitchers are Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Greg Maddox, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez. The lists look comparable to with what you see with football and basketball.

The issue becomes when you add another 60 years for baseball with almost all of the best athletes going into that sport. The last 40 years of players for baseball becomes diluted and it looks like it does.

The best white athletes anyhow, as the best black ones could not play in the major leagues, however much we now want to call the Negro League a major league. Those men did not have the same chance to establish themselves. Otherwise, our pre 1950 all time teams might look different. That footnoted, I think your points are well taken, pre 1950s football and basketball are essentially prehistoric, nobody is going to put Grange or Mikan on their all time starting team.