Two hour interview with.... Bill Mastro

Fred · #1 10-16-2024, 11:51 PM

I have to admit, I went straight to 1:06. It's interesting.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 10-17-2024, 12:19 AM

The Wagner is sheet cut. It was never better than an AUTH. It should be in an AUTH now because it's sheet cut, not because it was subsequently trimmed. The focus of this story has been wrong all along IMO.

jchcollins · #3 10-17-2024, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Wagner is sheet cut. It was never better than an AUTH. It should be in an AUTH now because it's sheet cut, not because it was subsequently trimmed. The focus of this story has been wrong all along IMO.

Exactly.

And PSA, complicit in the skulduggery from the word go - knew it was sheet cut and gave it an 8 anyway.

What a fine opening chapter for the attitudes on grading and tone of things we find today.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Peter_Spaeth · #4 10-17-2024, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Exactly.

And PSA, complicit in the skulduggery from the word go - knew it was sheet cut and gave it an 8 anyway.

What a fine opening chapter for the attitudes on grading and tone of things we find today.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, the common understanding seems to be that Mastro took a lower grade card and trimmed it into a higher grade one, and PSA missed or overlooked the trimming. Thus, all the emphasis has been on the trimming. Not really accurate.

jchcollins · #5 10-17-2024, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, the common understanding seems to be that Mastro took a lower grade card and trimmed it into a higher grade one, and PSA missed or overlooked the trimming. Thus, all the emphasis has been on the trimming. Not really accurate.

Right.

The problem seems to be in Mastro�s insistence that he didn�t hide it (the fact it was cut) from anyone, vs. the stories that started circulating after Gretzky and McNall bought the card and PSA graded it.

You can kind of see Mastro�s side of the story though. At the time he cut it from the sheet or the �oblong football� of a card he bought, there were no grading companies. Even after PSA graded the card in 1992 or whenever, there still was not this widespread focus on the deceptive practice of trimming, what a certain type of card should or should not measure to up to 1/72 of an inch - and things like that. Mastro likely wasn�t asked much about the circumstances in which he acquired the card and what he did with it before selling it to Jim Copeland in the late 80�s. There was not this cloud of eternal suspicion over things like that, as we have today with just about anything in a slab that is vintage that appears perfect or near perfect to the naked eye.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

puckpaul · #6 10-20-2024, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Right.

The problem seems to be in Mastro�s insistence that he didn�t hide it (the fact it was cut) from anyone, vs. the stories that started circulating after Gretzky and McNall bought the card and PSA graded it.

You can kind of see Mastro�s side of the story though. At the time he cut it from the sheet or the �oblong football� of a card he bought, there were no grading companies. Even after PSA graded the card in 1992 or whenever, there still was not this widespread focus on the deceptive practice of trimming, what a certain type of card should or should not measure to up to 1/72 of an inch - and things like that. Mastro likely wasn�t asked much about the circumstances in which he acquired the card and what he did with it before selling it to Jim Copeland in the late 80�s. There was not this cloud of eternal suspicion over things like that, as we have today with just about anything in a slab that is vintage that appears perfect or near perfect to the naked eye.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No widespread focus on trimming?? There was a huge focus on it, and it was rampant. I discussed this with quality dealers and hobby people all the time back then. I didnt purchase PSA cards because of the deals made to get grades on trimmed cards.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 10-20-2024, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puckpaul

No widespread focus on trimming?? There was a huge focus on it, and it was rampant. I discussed this with quality dealers and hobby people all the time back then. I didnt purchase PSA cards because of the deals made to get grades on trimmed cards.

Of course there was. Ironically, the rampant trimming at that time was the very marketing pitch on which PSA launched its business.

tjisonline · #8 10-20-2024, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puckpaul

No widespread focus on trimming?? There was a huge focus on it, and it was rampant. I discussed this with quality dealers and hobby people all the time back then. I didnt purchase PSA cards because of the deals made to get grades on trimmed cards.

many high grade trimmed vintage cards in older PSA holders. it's laughably sad.

jchcollins · #9 10-20-2024, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puckpaul

No widespread focus on trimming?? There was a huge focus on it, and it was rampant. I discussed this with quality dealers and hobby people all the time back then. I didnt purchase PSA cards because of the deals made to get grades on trimmed cards.

Thanks for the info. I honestly didn't know; I was 14 in 1991. Where I guess I was going was, did the average collector then look at a nice expensive card and ask if it had been trimmed? Maybe not for 50's cards. But I guess maybe if you were considering buying a Wagner you would.

So there were "deals made" to get grades on other trimmed cards even in the early PSA days? Interesting. You always hear the argument that PSA was the savior of the wild wild west scene, where nobody knew whether cards had been altered or not. But if they were making deals from the getgo of slabbing trimmed cards with the profit motive - I guess that's just earlier than I realized.

campyfan39 · #10 10-22-2024, 08:58 PM

PSA and grading were all about money and nothing about the hobby from the get-go. Yet people still give them business and clamor for even one grade more.

People buying commons for 1,000's just to participate in the pecker contest known as the registry are the biggest marks ever. Yeah, they may make money and have bragging rights, but the original graders must be laughing their asses off somewhere.

I know I have done my part as I have freed 1500+ from their plastic prisons, even some big boys. If more would do that, the pop reports would become even more meaningless and inaccurate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Exactly.

And PSA, complicit in the skulduggery from the word go - knew it was sheet cut and gave it an 8 anyway.

What a fine opening chapter for the attitudes on grading and tone of things we find today.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

4815162342 · #11 10-22-2024, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

PSA and grading were all about money and nothing about the hobby from the get-go. Yet people still give them business and clamor for even one grade more.

People buying commons for 1,000's just to participate in the pecker contest known as the registry are the biggest marks ever. Yeah, they may make money and have bragging rights, but the original graders must be laughing their asses off somewhere.

I know I have done my part as I have freed 1500+ from their plastic prisons, even some big boys. If more would do that, the pop reports would become even more meaningless and inaccurate.

But, why are you buying graded just to crack them out? If you don’t like graded cards, why not just buy raw?

G1911 · #12 10-22-2024, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4815162342

But, why are you buying graded just to crack them out? If you don�t like graded cards, why not just buy raw?

I�ve cracked a couple thousand or so. For me, it�s because the card might not be available raw. In my little realm I might have to wait a few years or just never get a card if I�m picky about the container it ships in. Most people grade the decent stuff, so a lot of my scarcer material was put into my collection via cracking the slab open. If I�m looking for a poor grade T206 Mathewson, I�ll just get a raw one, but if I want a card that has ~10 copies known, it doesn�t make sense to be picky. Buy it and crack it.

4815162342 · #13 10-22-2024, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I�ve cracked a couple thousand or so. For me, it�s because the card might not be available raw. In my little realm I might have to wait a few years or just never get a card if I�m picky about the container it ships in. Most people grade the decent stuff, so a lot of my scarcer material was put into my collection via cracking the slab open. If I�m looking for a poor grade T206 Mathewson, I�ll just get a raw one, but if I want a card that has ~10 copies known, it doesn�t make sense to be picky. Buy it and crack it.

That makes sense for scarce examples, but a majority of postwar cards are plentiful in raw form.

Snowman · #14 10-22-2024, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I�ve cracked a couple thousand or so. For me, it�s because the card might not be available raw. In my little realm I might have to wait a few years or just never get a card if I�m picky about the container it ships in. Most people grade the decent stuff, so a lot of my scarcer material was put into my collection via cracking the slab open. If I�m looking for a poor grade T206 Mathewson, I�ll just get a raw one, but if I want a card that has ~10 copies known, it doesn�t make sense to be picky. Buy it and crack it.

Always knew you were a scammer. Thanks for confirming. FRAUDSTER!

campyfan39 · #15 10-22-2024, 09:32 PM

Fair question.
It's very difficult to buy ungraded star cards in decent condition because dealers with nice cards price them at graded prices or higher (because everyone thinks their cards are better than they are).
I can't stand paying for the grade, but it is what the hobby has deteriorated to. That is why I have not bought much in 2024.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4815162342

But, why are you buying graded just to crack them out? If you don�t like graded cards, why not just buy raw?

nwobhm · #16 10-17-2024, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Wagner is sheet cut. It was never better than an AUTH. It should be in an AUTH now because it's sheet cut, not because it was subsequently trimmed. The focus of this story has been wrong all along IMO.

Aren�t most cards sheet cut? The argument is who cut it, no?

What if it was cut using the same cutters as the day it was printed only 90yrs later?

Peter_Spaeth · #17 10-17-2024, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Aren�t most cards sheet cut? The argument is who cut it, no?

What if it was cut using the same cutters as the day it was printed only 90yrs later?

Yes, if it's cut by the factory and issued as a single that is different from an individual cutting it from a sheet or strip. You can obviously do a Socratic method on it, but the hobby distinguishes.

Snowman · #18 10-18-2024, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, if it's cut by the factory and issued as a single that is different from an individual cutting it from a sheet or strip. You can obviously do a Socratic method on it, but the hobby distinguishes.

Or at least the hobby wishes to distinguish. The fundamental problem though is that the hobby in fact cannot distinguish.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Most Notorius interview of researcher of the 1932 shooting of Bill Jurges.	Brian Van Horn	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	10	02-05-2023 07:23 PM
Bill Mastro & Honus:	clydepepper	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	23	06-23-2015 06:11 PM
Bill Mastro - Great Guy	JT	Autograph Forum- Primarily Sports	20	05-30-2015 07:24 AM
Bill Mastro, 35 years ago	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	3	06-24-2008 07:28 AM
Those were the days.. Bill Mastro	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	0	02-06-2007 03:45 PM