Most undervalued HOFers

[John1941]

Eddie Yost, Bucky Walters, Johnny Bassler, and Bobby Grich are undervalued in my opinion, to name just a few.

Also, why are we talking about Bobby Richardson in a thread about undervalued players? Ron Hansen was better than Richardson. Bobby Knoop was better than Richardson. Jim Landis was better than Richardson. Mark Belanger was way better than Richardson

If anything, Richardson is overvalued because he's a Yankee whose stats are superficially impressive because post-Stengel Yankee managers batted him leadoff for some inexplicable reason. Richardson received MVP votes six different years, including a second place finish in 1962, as a mediocre player. He was a very good fielder, but so were the others I've mentioned, and they were much better hitters than him.

[packs]

On the pitching tip, I'll throw Lefty Grove's name out there. He's one of the more anonymous 300 game winners despite winning an MVP, two Triple Crowns and leading the league in ERA and ERA+ 9 times in his career.

He's hurt by having fewer cards than most but even the cards considered to be his rookies (DeLong, Goudey, Diamond Stars) are typically affordable in even mid-grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

On the pitching tip, I'll throw Lefty Grove's name out there. He's one of the more anonymous 300 game winners despite winning an MVP, two Triple Crowns and leading the league in ERA and ERA+ 9 times in his career.

He's hurt by having fewer cards than most but even the cards considered to be his rookies (DeLong, Goudey, Diamond Stars) are typically affordable in even mid-grade.

Bill James rated Grove the third best pitcher behind Johnson and (yep) Paige. His US Caramel is before the cards you mentioned if you buy the 1932 date, but even then he has other cards dating back to 1921 IIRC. All that said, he doesn't get much love. Maybe because his raw numbers like ERA were high due to the nature of the game at that point.

[packs]

I forgot about the caramel. I thought the only card from 1921 featured him as a minor leaguer. His first professional season was 1925.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I forgot about the caramel. I thought the only card from 1921 featured him as a minor leaguer. His first professional season was 1925.

Right the Tip Top is Baltimore, but he has lots of post 1925 and pre 1932 issues, even if not mainstream. Exhibits (tempted many times to buy one myself lol), playng cards, Star Player Candy, Kashin, Novelty Leader, many more.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by John1941

Also, why are we talking about Bobby Richardson in a thread about undervalued players?

If anything, Richardson is overvalued because he's a Yankee whose stats are superficially impressive because post-Stengel Yankee managers batted him leadoff for some inexplicable reason.

I'm first and foremost a Yankee hater when it comes to baseball myself. The reason though that I mentioned Bobby Richardson is that I just looked through the list of Gold Glove winners and I saw Bobby Richardson's name five times from 1961 to 1965. And haven't we all been told since we were kids that fielding is half the game?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bobby Richardson CAREER WAR -- 8.0.
Next undervalued player please?

[packs]

Another pitcher I've always been fascinated by is Dazzy Vance. He had such a strange career. Made his debut at 24 and went 0-4. Three years later he pitched in two games and then doesn't appear in the majors again until he's 31 years old, promptly winning seven strikeout titles in a row and a Triple Crown and MVP. He also won three ERA titles, all over the age 33.

Pretty incredible career.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Am I remembering correctly that Grove was really not terribly loved by the fans? I definitely remember that was the case among his colleagues. You have to wonder if that widespread unlikability factor plays a part in today's value/demand, silently carrying part of the blame for lack of value/interest in spite of nobody being alive to recall his unlikeable traits.

The same can definitely be said/asked in regards to Hornsby, although there are certainly a few very old-timers kicking around who played under him. I used to know some of his teammates and others who played under him. Absolutely none of them had a single kind word.

An interesting fact about Grove, though:

I sent out thousands of questionnaires as a kid, always seeking out the oldest surviving players first. The vast majority of these guys played from the 1900's-40's. The first question was, "Who was your favorite player while growing up?". There were the piles of obvious "Babe Ruth" and "Ty Cobb" (more so from the oldest crowd), but it was actually surprising to me how many men who grew up to be pitchers listed Grove as their favorite! Some were really informed, listing him as "Robert Moses Grove", so you know their fandom was true and remained into their golden years. Geographically, these players weren't only isloated to areas close to where Grove pitched, either. Just something I found interesting.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bobby Richardson CAREER WAR -- 8.0.
Next undervalued player please?

Not that I'm much interested in defending a New York Yankee, but I see now that not only was Bobby Richardson the MVP of the 1960 World Series (Yay Pirates!) but was a seven-time All-Star.

Moreover I can't find that WAR stat on the back of any of my Baseball cards which indicates it's some newfangled thing that wasn't around in his day. Do you really believe that some such newly hatched player valuation technique incorporating multiple subjective factors is a better gauge of Bobby Richardson as a player than the awards he was given during his actual career?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Not that I'm much interested in defending a New York Yankee, but I see now that not only was Bobby Richardson the MVP of the 1960 World Series (Yay Pirates!) but was a seven-time All-Star.

Moreover I can't find that WAR stat on the back of any of my Baseball cards which indicates it's some newfangled thing that wasn't around in his day. Do you really believe that some such newly hatched player valuation technique incorporating multiple subjective factors is a better gauge of Bobby Richardson as a player than the awards he was given during his actual career?

Yes. Absolutely. Anyhow, he wasn't that good by many other more modern metrics too.

If he played in Kansas City or Baltimore you wouldn't have even heard of him.

Slightly above average player overall. Certainly not undervalued.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If he played in Kansas City or Baltimore you wouldn't have even heard of him.

I wish he had. That way I could like him almost as much as Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio and Brooks Robinson.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ha.

Nellie Fox 49.4 WAR (compared to 8.0).
Aparicio 55.9
Brooks 78.5

Even the much maligned Mazeroski at least hit 36.5.

BTW on Baseball Reference's ranking of second basemen, Richardson is .... 229.

[timn1]

Do you really believe that some such newly hatched player valuation technique incorporating multiple subjective factors is a better gauge of Bobby Richardson as a player than the awards he was given during his actual career?

[/QUOTE]

YES YES YES

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by timn1

YES YES YES

Oh come on!

WAR stands for “wins above replacement” and it attempts to measure a player’s overall value to a team by positing how many wins he is worth when compared to a replacement-level player.

Since when are scouts very good at projecting how any minor league replacement player will fare at the MLB level? They make educated guesses but it's guesswork nonetheless and they're frequently wrong, very wrong. Quite simply there's many a slip 'twixt cup and lip.

Worse yet, the WAR stat involves projecting the performance of no specific player but some theoretical random replacement player. In other words an abstraction! So WAR is based on extrapolating, i.e. guessing, the play of an abstraction! Talk about airy-fairy!

I'm with those who believe that the search for one simple metric such as WAR to assess baseball players is a search "an ephemeral alchemy, a chimera, and he who searches for it runs a fool’s errand."