Most undervalued HOFers

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

How about Jackie Robinson? Aren't his cards quite pricey compared to even those of Yogi Berra, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron?

I feel they are overpriced, too. To me, it has everything to do with Jackie as a figurehead for Civil Rights vs. his actual performance. He appeals to today's woke mentality, too, so prices just keep rising. (Boy, do I hate the term "woke". I shuddered when typing it.)

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Tim,

First off, I'd politely like to take the superhuman Walter Johnson out of what I say below.

The other pitchers you used for comparison in your last post all actually had good/great teams helping them secure higher winning percentages quite often in their careers. Ryan couldn't be expected to win all the games on his own with absolutely no aid from some disgustingly terrible teams. Aside from 1969, which was so early on for him, when did he ever have any support? His W-L totals are not solely his doing. Not to mention that he was barely used in 1969; less than 90 IP.

[timn1]

But were Ryan's teams really THAT much worse than those of others? We're talking about a 20+ plus year stretch, after all. There were some good ones in there too - and Seaver, Carlton, Blyleven, etc. (everybody but Yankees) endured some bad teams.

You may be right, but it just seems to me it would even out over long careers- maybe not completely, but to a great extent.

We're talking about some huge disparities in pitcher WL PCT - Ryan's .526 vs. Seaver's .603, for example. Even Carlton's .574, which doesn't sound that great, represents 5 more wins and 48 fewer losses than Ryan.

I'm doing some research on this question just because it interests me - preliminary results are interesting!

WL Records of Ryan's teams (1968-1992 and half of 1993): 2062 Wins, 2010 Losses .506

Team Records without Ryan's decisions (1968-1992 and half of 1993): 1738 wins, 1718 Losses .502

Doesn't look like he played for that many horrible teams...

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Tim,

First off, I'd politely like to take the superhuman Walter Johnson out of what I say below.

The other pitchers you used for comparison in your last post all actually had good/great teams helping them secure higher winning percentages quite often in their careers. Ryan couldn't be expected to win all the games on his own with absolutely no aid from some disgustingly terrible teams. Aside from 1969, which was so early on for him, when did he ever have any support? His W-L totals are not solely his doing. Not to mention that he was barely used in 1969; less than 90 IP.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I feel they are overpriced, too. To me, it has everything to do with Jackie as a figurehead for Civil Rights vs. his actual performance. He appeals to today's woke mentality, too, so prices just keep rising. (Boy, do I hate the term "woke". I shuddered when typing it.)

I don't think the "woke mentality" is terribly prevalent in this segment of the hobby dominated by older white men. I do think the collective respect for U.S. history elevates his status significantly, no question.

I picked up my first this year thanks to another member -- it's just a beautiful piece.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

There are lots of new collectors who are younger. Yes, most may be into modern material, but if they make the jump into vintage, as some have and more will continue to do, they will undoubtedly be drawn to Jackie, thereby keeping the values rising. That's who I was referring to.

[packs]

I would think you would want future generations to be drawn to someone like Jackie Robinson.

[molenick]

I think people underestimate Robinson as a player.

No, he was not on the Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Morgan, Gehringer level but a lot of that is due to having a shorter career. His 162 game average is 16 HR, 23 SB, 111 runs, 87 RBIs with a .313/.410/.477 slash which translates to an .887 OPS and 133 OPS+.

And he his third (after Hornsby and Ross Barnes) in WAR/162 for second basemen. ROY, MVP, 7-time all star (in 10 MLB seasons). No Gold Gloves were awarded while he played but I am not aware of him being regarded as a defensive liability. And I don't know how to measure intangibles (hustle, leadership, distracting the pitcher, etc.), but if anyone had them, he did.

[Tomi]

Originally Posted by molenick

I think people underestimate Robinson as a player.

No, he was not on the Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Morgan, Gehringer level but a lot of that is due to having a shorter career. His 162 game average is 16 HR, 23 SB, 111 runs, 87 RBIs with a .313/.410/.477 slash which translates to an .887 OPS and 133 OPS+.

And he his third (after Hornsby and Ross Barnes) in WAR/162 for second basemen. ROY, MVP, 7-time all star (in 10 MLB seasons). No Gold Gloves were awarded while he played but I am not aware of him being regarded as a defensive liability. And I don't know how to measure intangibles (hustle, leadership, distracting the pitcher, etc.), but if anyone had them, he did.

He was 28 years old as a rookie. His averages would be so much better if he started as a 20 year old like many others. No point of comparing him to anyone as far as numbers go. He would be in that group easily if he had a full career like they did. I know you acknowledged his short career but take his late start and the abuse he endured and I'll easily put him on their level.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Tomi

He was 28 years old as a rookie. His averages would be so much better if he started as a 20 year old like many others. No point of comparing him to anyone as far as numbers go. He would be in that group easily if he had a full career like they did. I know you acknowledged his short career but take his late start and the abuse he endured and I'll easily put him on their level.

Well, my point was that he was underestimated as a player...and I guess I did the same thing!

[Mungo Hungo]

Originally Posted by Tomi

He was 28 years old as a rookie. His averages would be so much better if he started as a 20 year old like many others. No point of comparing him to anyone as far as numbers go. He would be in that group easily if he had a full career like they did. I know you acknowledged his short career but take his late start and the abuse he endured and I'll easily put him on their level.

Jackie Robinson is a towering figure, IMO. His accomplishments in the context of the enormous resistance to his even playing the game are just astounding.

But it’s also worth considering that he, like so many others, was in WWII between 1942 and 1944. In ‘41, he was graduating college and playing a bit of pro football. So misfortune really prevented his baseball career from taking off before ‘45, which means that the color line, as horrible as it was, may not have had a huge impact on his final stats.

A couple of other things - I’ve seen video of him playing - I’m sure it’s available on YouTube, and man he must have been intimidating for catchers and pitchers. I can imagine that no one who was then active had seen anything like him. Also, Rachel Robinson is still alive, age 102. Due to Jackie’s sadly early death, she’s been a widow for more than half a century.