Goldin Auction - Honus Wagner �Rookie Card�

Rhotchkiss · #1 11-01-2024, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Peter,

That is a recognized practice among most major auction houses, disclosure of which is buried in the fine print of the auction rules. I characterize it as legalized fraud, as its purpose is to induce bids on the mistaken belief there is genuine interest at that bidding level.

+1. It’s dog shit and, while legal, ethical fraud. I don’t like a hidden reserve, but I get it and think it’s fair enough. But an AH should not be able to effectively shill up the price, making it seem that real bids are being placed, in an effort to get someone to place a real bid at the hidden reserve amount. I despise this practice. Now, just because an AH can do this does not necessarily mean they do it, although I expect they do/would if an item is below the hidden reserve- why not use the tool if you can.

tjisonline · #2 11-01-2024, 05:04 PM

I get why they do it but like many here, do not agree with the practice. It�s dogshit as you stated.

If a consigner (or AH) has a minimum price set, that�s perfectly fine. Just open the auction lot at that price instead of faking additional interest (bids).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

+1. It�s dog shit and, while legal, ethical fraud. I don�t like a hidden reserve, but I get it and think it�s fair enough. But an AH should not be able to effectively shill up the price, making it seem that real bids are being placed, in an effort to get someone to place a real bid at the hidden reserve amount. I despise this practice. Now, just because an AH can do this does not necessarily mean they do it, although I expect they do/would if an item is below the hidden reserve- why not use the tool if you can.

calvindog · #3 11-01-2024, 05:40 PM

I don�t believe REA does this.

tjisonline · #4 11-01-2024, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don’t believe REA does this.

They look good
*******

16. No Consignor Bids. Consignors are prohibited from bidding on their own materials or having others secretly bid for them on their behalf. If any consignor directly or indirectly bids on his own items at auction, it is without REA's consent, and REA reserves the right, at its sole discretion, at any time and without any warning, to remove any bids it suspects of being fraudulent or placed in consort with a consignor.

17. No House Bids. There is no circumstance under which REA may execute bids for its own "house account," thereby unfairly competing with bidders. In fact, to be clear, REA does not have a "house account," unlike many other auction operators. Under no circumstance is any employee of REA authorized to place bids in this Auction on their personal accounts. Employees of REA (and REA) may consign their personal property or owned items to this Auction, provided they will be treated like any other consignor (including not being permitted to bid on their own lots).

13. Opening Bids and Reserve Amounts. Each lot in this Auction is accompanied by an opening bid (meaning a minimum bid amount). Select lots may have a confidential reserve placed on them by the consignor, which means that the lot will not be sold until a bidder bids an amount equal or greater than the reserve amount. A reserve is set by the consignor (not by REA) when the consignor determines that the value of a lot is such that they are not willing to sell the lot if its sale price does not attain the reserve amount. The reserve notification may not post to a lot until the Auction is in progress and as late in the Auction as on or about 24 hours prior to the Final Initial Bid Day’s conclusion at 9:00 PM ET that day. Check back before the Auction’s Final Initial Bid Day ending (i.e., prior to 9:00 PM ET that day) to see any applicable reserve. The absence of a reserve when the Auction commences and early in the Auction process should not be interpreted as there being no reserve applicable. Lots subject to a reserve will be clearly designated as subject to a reserve (or using similar language) on their individual pages online in accordance with the timeline posted above. REA does not update any physical (printed) Auction catalog with reserves announced after the catalog was mailed to recipients; for the most up to date information on reserves, bidders should consult the lot details online. Until such time that the confidential reserve is met, the lot page will display "Reserve Not Met" directly underneath the current bid. Bidders may continue to bid on such lots using all available bid increments.

Once the confidential reserve is met, the status of the lot will change to "Reserve Met" on the lot’s online page. Reserve amounts will not be disclosed online but may be available upon request unless the consignor has restricted disclosure. Items with a confidential reserve may be accompanied by an estimated value. The confidential reserve amount will be lower than or equal to this estimated value.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/terms.pdf

oldjudge · #5 11-01-2024, 06:04 PM

Nor does LOTG

bcbgcbrcb · #6 11-01-2024, 07:17 PM

So we think most likely only one bidder against the auction house at some point. Any idea who that bidder might be and/or at what point everyone else was out?

At first, this looks like a lost opportunity from the consignor standpoint because of the high hidden reserve. But, let�s say the second bidder was out of the running at $350K. The consignor only gets that amount then. But now, they have the card back with a $850K comp (sort of), although noted that the card did not sell. A couple of years from now, they give the card to REA/Heritage/AH. Most likely, the opening bid will be much more reasonable and interested bidders researching past offerings of the card will find the not met reserve at $850K and that number will play a significant roll in how high they are willing to go. Of course, if the item description is more honest and straightforward, that will have a huge impact as well. So, potentially, this consignor might have ended up with $350K on a card whose prior highest sale was $51K, now they are working with an unsold number of $850K. This may not be a bad decision at all by the consignor, I can see the logic in possibly getting a much bigger payday down the road and Goldin played right into it by allowing the $1MM reserve.

Exhibitman · #7 11-02-2024, 07:47 AM

How reserves may be used is a function of state law. Auctioneers located in states with less regulation are freer to do more hidden manipulation of an auction. You don't care for a particular auctioneer's policy, bitch to the state legislature.

All of the machinations have one goal: to generate 'action'. If the auction started at the reserve, there would be less action. The more bidders in an auction on an item, the more buzz it gets, the more likely others are to bid on the item. FOMO.

BRoberts · #8 11-02-2024, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Nor does LOTG

Nor does Andy Sandler�s All Sports Collectibles Auctions.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
possible 1915 Babe Ruth pre-rookie? up for auction at Goldin Auctions	vintagehofrookies	Ebay, Auction and other Venues Announcement- B/S/T	7	03-18-2022 10:42 PM
My New Honus Wagner Rookie!	mouschi	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	18	09-20-2020 12:41 AM
WTT Aaron rookie for Honus Wagner card	Jcfowler6	1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T	0	06-01-2017 05:34 PM
* J=K Candy Honus Wagner for sale...Wagner's toughest card! Now sold!! *	shammus	Pre-WWII cards (E, D, M, etc..) B/S/T	4	04-04-2017 04:07 PM
Honus Wagner Rookie	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	4	04-26-2005 11:33 AM