Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

[Johnphotoman]

There is a copy of the Baseball card society letter on the original thread, this is what Ted Z wrote about that letter:

From the original By Ted Zanidakis thread: "This document appears to be the evidence regarding the source of the RE-printed "1947 Bond Bread" cards which David Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's. It is not dated, however in it's text it implies a circa 1980's date, which does coincide with Festberg's find. Plus, the fact that 24 cards are being advertised. The original BOND BREAD set of cards consists of 48 cards.

When I first saw these cards in the early 1990's at the Philly Show, I purchased several of them. When I got home, I compared them to my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards, which I collected in my youth. And, it was very obvious, that these were inferior reproductions." TED Z

The cards you have does not look inferior in anyway, but a true 1947-1949 card to me, and that's where I would place it. John

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

There is a copy of the Baseball card society letter on the original thread, this is what Ted Z wrote about that letter:

From the original By Ted Zanidakis thread: "This document appears to be the evidence regarding the source of the RE-printed "1947 Bond Bread" cards which David Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's. It is not dated, however in it's text it implies a circa 1980's date, which does coincide with Festberg's find. Plus, the fact that 24 cards are being advertised. The original BOND BREAD set of cards consists of 48 cards.

When I first saw these cards in the early 1990's at the Philly Show, I purchased several of them. When I got home, I compared them to my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards, which I collected in my youth. And, it was very obvious, that these were inferior reproductions." TED Z

The cards you have does not look inferior in anyway, but a true 1947-1949 card to me, and that's where I would place it. John

You will also find my copy of the letter as well. I still have that and the invoice from when I bought them.

Butch Turner

[Johnphotoman]

Can you post them? Where did you buy them? I thought the letter was to warn people about the re-prints from the 1980s, I did not know about the find in the 1970s. I try to copy the original letter but could not, what date is on yours.

This is good knowledge to have.Thank you for your opinion, but many people take them as original. And that is what this thread is about, it is good to get other opinions. My research gives one opinion and your another. Look at the Edwards Auction, if those cars had brown backs and of inferior quality, they would not say they were 1947-1949 cards.

Lot 42: Square Corner Bond Bread Complete Baseball Card Set (24) w/ Jackie Robinson, Stan Musial, Phil Rizzuto, Joe Louis - 1947-49?
Richard L. Edwards Auctioneer Greenville, OH, US April 15, 2023
Item Overview / Description, Square Corner Bond Bread Complete Baseball Card Set (24) w/ Jackie Robinson, Stan Musial, Phil Rizzuto, Joe Louis - 1947-49? John

[butchie_t]

I would love to say that they are original. They do check some notable boxes but.... Problem is that there are way more questions than answers to the questions. And Ted Z as well as Leon have commented about these as well over the years. I take their word as gospel.

Here you go.

Cheers,

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you, I do appreciate your help with this thread. With all due respect I have a question for you. Butch, with your own proof, why do you question if the cards you have are not original? The letter you have says…”the most unique sets of baseball cards ever produced - 1947 Homogenized Bond set.”
“40-year-old cards”. "Every one of The 24 cards are in gem mint condition -exactly as they were printed more than 40 years ago.”

I notice there is no date on the letter, but if we go back 40 years from 1970-1980 we come to the years-1930-1940. Therefore the cards you have would be in those eras. Also your letter says, "The 1947 Homogenized Bond set, which was printed for only one year, contained 48 cards in all (44 baseball players and 4 boxers. We purchased the best of the set--24 cards in all---from the dealers's widow."

Therefore, you would have the 24 set card from 1947. Thanks again, John.

[Johnphotoman]

Here is a link to Bob Lemke's Blog - Saturday, April 16, 2011.
This page basically backs up the Baseball Card Society letter form above. Thanks to butchie t posting.

“The most recent information provided sheds some light on a variant of what the hobby knows as the "Bond Bread" issue of 1947. In reality, the New York baker was only one of several businesses that used a series of 44 baseball player cards and four boxers as promotions in the post-war era.

The genesis of the cards was a Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards, that originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. The cards are black-and-white, blank-backed, 2-1/4" x 3-3/8" with rounded corners. Photos are borderless portraits or posed action shots with a facsimile autograph or script name.

That year, the N.Y. baker of Bond Bread evidently contracted with Aarco to obtain a quantity of the cards for distribution in loaves of bread. Later, for reasons unknown, square-cornered versions of half the cards in the set, printed on different card stock, were also produced.

Besides the boxed set and bread cards, much of the checklist of this set, along with at least one player that didn't appear in the original form, was used in a series of Exhibit-style larger-format cards and in a set of premium pictures in 6-5/8" x 9" format.

There was also a seldom-seen variant using the baseball/boxer pictures on one side, paired with Western movie stars on the backs. These were issued in perforated sheets.” (Bob Lemke's Blog). https://boblemke.blogspot.com/2011/0...ond-bread.html John.

[Exhibitman]

The "seldom seen variant"...seen

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Thank you, I do appreciate your help with this thread. With all due respect I have a question for you. Butch, with your own proof, why do you question if the cards you have are not original? The letter you have says…”the most unique sets of baseball cards ever produced - 1947 Homogenized Bond set.”
“40-year-old cards”. "Every one of The 24 cards are in gem mint condition -exactly as they were printed more than 40 years ago.”

I notice there is no date on the letter, but if we go back 40 years from 1970-1980 we come to the years-1930-1940. Therefore the cards you have would be in those eras. Also your letter says, "The 1947 Homogenized Bond set, which was printed for only one year, contained 48 cards in all (44 baseball players and 4 boxers. We purchased the best of the set--24 cards in all---from the dealers's widow."

Therefore, you would have the 24 set card from 1947. Thanks again, John.

John,

It all comes down to provenance. There is absolutely no way to tie these cards to a bread company or some other company that existed and printed them within the 47-48 timeframe. Someone that put that information in the letter to entice me to purchase even cannot or could not definitively state that these are actual Homogenized Bond Bread cards. He just claimed that they could be. At least that is what I have come to believe/understand now.

Now from a personal position I can see by comparing these cards to others within that time frame and much later, that they do compare themselves favorably to the earlier cards. But I am no expert and I have no other proof other than my hope.

Bottom line, until someone has enough gumption to actually do a serious amount of forensic work on these cards to actually place them in the 40's era, they remain a nice, somewhat expensive, novelty group of cards that I own.

I kept all the pertinent information from my purchase, including the invoice and the little tag that came with them. I can show my provenance but someone else has to do the gap tracking to actually get them to a documentable level that they can be cataloged as real.

Regards,

Butch

[Yoda]

John, are the blank backed '47 Bond Bread rounded corners insert cards any rarer than those with the bread ad reverse? Great recap on a sometimes confusing set.

[Keith H. Thompson]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

There is a copy of the Baseball card society letter on the original thread, this is what Ted Z wrote about that letter:

From the original By Ted Zanidakis thread: "This document appears to be the evidence regarding the source of the RE-printed "1947 Bond Bread" cards which David Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's. It is not dated, however in it's text it implies a circa 1980's date, which does coincide with Festberg's find. Plus, the fact that 24 cards are being advertised. The original BOND BREAD set of cards consists of 48 cards.

When I first saw these cards in the early 1990's at the Philly Show, I purchased several of them. When I got home, I compared them to my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards, which I collected in my youth. And, it was very obvious, that these were inferior reproductions." TED Z

The cards you have does not look inferior in anyway, but a true 1947-1949 card to me, and that's where I would place it. John

I've always respected TED Z in this matter. We collectors do not like to trample on toes, or offend where money or influence is involved, but how can anyone tell the difference between finding genuinely printed Bond Bread issues in a NJ warehouse and salted reprints hot from the presses ?

[Johnphotoman]

I would agree, we cannot tell between the 1947 genuine cars, but we can tell the 1980s Festberg finds from the 1947 cards. As for hot of the presses, the quality would not be as good in the pictures, because they would have to copy the genuine cards, unless they have the Original photos the cards were made from. I have 181 9x10 photos they could have been used to print the cards from. Many are the “Bond Bread cards", this is why I do not like to show the photo, because someone could use them to make cards, and we could not tell the difference. For this same reason we can tell the 1980 find, because of paper and the quality of the printing. But if someone did have photos like I the ones I have... they print up cards, if they went about using the right paper stock. If this happens, we could not tell them apart from the 1947 cards, or almost impossible to tell them apart.

Wait if a forensic expert went over the cards, then they could tell when the paper was made, and what kind of ink was used, it would almost be impossible to get ink and paper stock from the 1947, therefore the forensic person could tell the fake cards. But as collectors we could not. I was in the printing for over 40 years, and I don't know if I could tell the fakes if done right, with the matching stock and the original photo. John

[Johnphotoman]

I was thinking, I don’t mean to imply that the 1980s Festberg - discovered in NJ. are not good cards to have. On the contrary, anyone who has these cards has a piece of baseball history. Only that they are not from the 1947 cards issued. And they are not Bond Bread cards, since they were not but in the bread, this is what makes the Bond Bread issue so special. And again I do agree we cannot tell the Bond Bread cards from the Sports Star cards. John

[ullmandds]

To clarify...I was never under the impression mine is from the festburg find...nor is it an original bond bread. I always thought it was some other issue with a vintage from the 50's or so.

[Johnphotoman]

My best guess is you have 1947 cards, " Aarco Playing Cards 1947". Not having the cards in hand is hard to tell, but the quality is what one would expect and paper stock looks right, if there where re-prints from the 1950s, I believe we could tell just by looking at them. John

[Johnphotoman]

Here is what a copy or counterfeit card could and should look like in my opinion. The thing about the 1980s Festburg find is no one calls them fakes or counterfeits, just re-prints of 24 Bond Bread cards. Poor quality card looks like, I didn't mean to say counterfeit. John

[Johnphotoman]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

I've always respected TED Z in this matter. We collectors do not like to trample on toes, or offend where money or influence is involved, but how can anyone tell the difference between finding genuinely printed Bond Bread issues in a NJ warehouse and salted reprints hot from the presses ?

Keith, your post deserves an update. I stand by the hot of the printing press response. But you made a very good point, which had me looking into, can we tell the difference between the squared cut cards. Meaning the cards we call Bond Bread and the Festberg cards. With new information I have to say no. I went by the information provided by the Ted Z post, but as I continue to research and investigate the Bond Bread card set, I have found that not everything in that post can be taken as gospel. Thanks to you we can have this conversation. John