Let�s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

GeoPoto · #1 11-30-2024, 02:49 PM

WRT "the Fessburg cards": You seem to be saying that somebody printed up a bunch of cards in 1947-9 on eccentric card stock, which then disappeared leaving no survivors until a large number were found in 1980. I'm wondering why you are convinced they were printed then and not any other time between then and when they were "discovered" in 1980?

I only have one card that's relevant:

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

Johnphotoman · #2 11-30-2024, 03:20 PM

Only because we have first hand knowledge, people who collected these cards in 1947-49. Therefore we know what to look for. To print them in any other years, they would have to have copied them from the original cards, when this is done we can tell. As I have said, you would need the original photos or negatives to print from. There is 99% chance the people who would have printed the exact cards would have the originals, therefore, you would have a copy of a copy, which will leave a patter in the printed card.

I was in printing for 40 years, I can tell when it is a copy from something that has already been printed. Look at the examples, you can tell the one that was copied from one that was printed before, and the one that was printed right from the original photo. The top card is the fake.

As for the card stock it would not match any of the samples we have from 1947-49 paper stock. You can use a black light to tell new paper stock from paper stock that was made in 1947-49. John

aelefson · #3 11-30-2024, 03:42 PM

Hi-

I saw David with a bunch (100+ I think) of the sets at Papermania in Hartford CT several years ago. I cannot remember the exact year but it was around 2019 or more recently. I wonder how many sets there were in his find.

Alan

Johnphotoman · #4 11-30-2024, 04:07 PM

You know�Dave Fessburg, could clear this all up, and he is probably the only one who knows how many cards there where. I don't know even if he is still around. But it would be cool to have him respond, or just to talk to him and get his respective on things. John

butchie_t · #5 11-30-2024, 06:17 PM

In the words of Yamamoto: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

This is totally 'tongue-in-cheek' and more of a reference to the first thread on this subject.

There is humor to be found in this, one just has to find it.

Cheers,

Butch

Johnphotoman · #6 11-30-2024, 06:49 PM

I did get it, very good. We could use more humor. This is fun, and it should be. Collecting should not be such a drag. That is what I like about this forum, we all give a little and get a little from each and every conversation. Thanks John

Johnphotoman · #7 11-30-2024, 06:57 PM

butchie t, Since you have all 24 cards, could you post the names here, I did the 44, but cannot find the list for the 24. And do you know if they are the exact same image, or are some different. As I said, I am trying to match baseball card images with the photos I have. John.

DaughterFestberg · #8 12-18-2024, 08:23 PM

Hi this is David Festberg�s daughter, I�m trying to track him down. Does anyone have any information where he is and how I could get in touch?

Exhibitman · #9 12-18-2024, 10:25 PM

"An Exhibit Card" is on the new cards in the 1949 print run. Some cards were run multiple years. Some the company scratched out the legend and ran the cards again:

And as long as I am on it, the base images used to make Exhibit cards were hand-edited and annotated. Here are a few:

Johnphotoman · #10 12-01-2024, 09:24 AM

Yoda, 1947 baseball cards with blank backs are classified in the standard catalog of Vintage baseball cards as W571/D305, the 1947 card with ads which are of Jackie Robinson - are classified as 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson.Therefore, I was wrong in saying they were never classified as Bond Bread cards. I am no expert on what is considered rare, but the Jackie Robinson to me would be considered rarer then the W571 cards, but you would have to know how many are around, how many where printer and the like, to make a true statement on which one are more rarer, just enjoy them both and treat them as rare cards. You have a great find, even if the Hobby does not agree with me, these cards deserve more respect than they get in collecting. But that is just my opinion. Thanks John

Johnphotoman · #11 12-01-2024, 09:55 AM

GeoPoto GeoPoto - I like to offer up a better reason why I am convinced about the 1980 Festburg cards, and other 1947-49 cards discussed here. One because of new or a better understanding of the facts we have surrounding those cards. I discovered much confusion, misidentification and perhaps some people just not telling the truth. We see false ads all the time. To be clear, much of the information in this piece is based on supposition by myself and other collectors. But as new evidence or information comes forth …we can say we are on the right track, I would say with an 80% to 95% accuracy on what we put forth as truth. I believe the one card you have is one of the original Bond Bread cards, but to see the back would help. Great Card. John

Johnphotoman · #12 12-01-2024, 07:39 PM

Yoda: I spent a little time researching my notes, and the 13 cards that make up the 1947 Jackie Robinson Bond Bread set, (printing on the backs) are considered a rarity more so then the Bond Bread cards that came in the loaves of bread, the ones with no printing on the backs. The 13 card set - are done entirely in black and white. The images have rounded corners with a white outside border and squared cut cards.

One card in the set has a portrait of Robinson on the front along with a facsimile signature. The back of this one card is the only one to feature a biographical write-up. The others cards have one of two back- with direct ads, that cover the rest of the set.

The facsimile signature the card portrait of Robinson, was likely distributed outside of the rest of the set. Most likely not inserted in loaves of bread. It has long been believed that it was a promo card of sorts available at grocery stores, among other distribution ways. There is this ad from 1947 in the Baltimore Afro new paper that seems to back this theory up: The ad tells people to run to the grocery store to get one for free. It looks like there is no mention of having to buy a loaf of bread. And then there is an ad, not sure where the ad ran, that looks like the front of the card- that says Free Offer, your grocer will give you a pocket-size photo of Jackie, get yours today.

The people who collect Robinson cards could tell you more. Will try and dig up the ad and post them and some other copies I have on these cards. If not I bet someone out there can. PS-I am going over my notes to see if I have anything on the cards you have, can you post pictures of front and backs. Someone more acquainted with your cards could tell you more.

John

Yoda · #13 12-02-2024, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Yoda, 1947 baseball cards with blank backs are classified in the standard catalog of Vintage baseball cards as W571/D305, the 1947 card with ads which are of Jackie Robinson - are classified as 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson.Therefore, I was wrong in saying they were never classified as Bond Bread cards. I am no expert on what is considered rare, but the Jackie Robinson to me would be considered rarer then the W571 cards, but you would have to know how many are around, how many where printer and the like, to make a true statement on which one are more rarer, just enjoy them both and treat them as rare cards. You have a great find, even if the Hobby does not agree with me, these cards deserve more respect than they get in collecting. But that is just my opinion. Thanks John

Thanks, John, very helpful. Appreciate it.

Johnphotoman · #14 12-02-2024, 03:26 PM

Pat R
Patrick- no please question me, that's how we are going to get to the bottom of this Bond Bread controversy. We need to ask questions, thank you for doing so. I will go back and look over my notes as well as - Ted Z thread, to see if I missed anything, and report back to you what I believe to be true; based on the facts we have so far. I do know of one problem: many people bought what we classify as “Bond Bread” cards printed in 1947 from ads in the 1980- 1990. Then many heard about the "Festberg" find, and just assumed that's the cards they have. As a result people started believing their cards are from some other time than 1947-1949. Keep in mind most experts believe the Festberg cards were printed in 1947-1949, and then discovered in a warehouse in the '80s… by David Festberg. John

Johnphotoman · #15 12-03-2024, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

This should keep you going for the next hour or so....It was started about 15 1/2 yrs ago by Teddy Z (RIP)...

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=92743

Before my report or findings on this Bond Bread controversy all due respect and appreciation goes out to Ted Z: For starting this Bond Bread thread back in 2009, may he rest in peace. Leon in thread #4 of this thread was kind enough to post the link to the original thread. My appreciation goes out to all past and present who have participated and added their contribution, thanks to all. John

My report back will be a long one as I gather the information we have on this Bond Bread controversy. I will be posting updates at different times so stay tuned. The controversy is about what a Bond Bread card is, and what did they look like. We have rounded corner cards, squared corner cards, a 1980s Festberg find, in a warehouse in NJ. On top of that we printed cards on different card stock-paper and then there are the out right fakes - counterfeit cards.

Let's start at the beginning. Quoting: Ted Z- “It was the Summer of '47....my sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams, a Stan Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card. Our Mom couldn't buy enough of the Bond Bread loafs. So, we had our Dad buying Bond Bread for his restaurant and our Aunt buying Bond Bread. These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each other, we eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a complete set.”

Ted Z- made a valid point - the only cards that should get the designation of Bond Bread cards are the ones inserted into loaves of Bond Bread bread. Ted Z- “The only true 1947 Bond Bread cards are these 48 in this general set and the Jackie Robinson set. All of which have beveled (or ROUNDED) corners in order to fit into the bread loaf packages. Unfortunately, other issues that resemble the Bond Bread cards that were issued after 1947 and were never packaged in Bond Bread loafs have been mis-identified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards. Grading Co. have been most guilty of erroneously labeling these SQUARE "impostors".

One other problem I see is that the Standard catalog of vantage baseball cards 4 edition, (I do not know about the others editions), classify both the round corned cards and the square corned cards as Bond Bread and give it the classification as W571 or I should say have assign them to W571.

Ted Z had first hand knowledge on what should be considered and given the destination as Bond Bread cards. He collected his cards directly from Bond Bread packages. Which I believe he said they we're never square corner cards or beveled cut, not quite round. See the threads below.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...05%2D14%2D2020

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...06%2D28%2D2020

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...06%2D30%2D2020

There is this misconception… that the rounded corner “Bond Bread” card was printed before all others. This is not true. We know that the Chicago publisher, Arrco Playing Card company had printed baseball cards and had originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. For boxes of Sport Star baseball cards, notice the round or beveled edges. See thread # 76.

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...06%2D10%2D2016

One reason why there is a difference in a rounder and beveled cut corners cards: Is because in the beginning of the production of the baseball cards by Arrco - the Sports Star cards where most likely die cut which gave them more of a beveled edge. By the time they started production on the Bond Bread cards, Arrco probably started using a round cornering machine, which gave the cards a more rounded edge.

Two interesting facts: The ARRCO Playing Card Company was started in 1927 (or 1930) in Chicago. ARRCO started as Arrow Playing Card Company by Theodore Regensteiner, who also invented the four-color lithograph press.

The round cornering machine, also known as a corner rounder or corner cutter, was invented to add rounded edges to documents, business cards, covers, and other printed materials. I do not know who invented the round cornering machine. But it was more pleasing to the eye than say a die cut card. We can see the difference in the cards.

Stay tuned, more to come. John

butchie_t · #16 12-03-2024, 02:52 PM

John,

I admire your quest to get to the bottom of this set. I certainly champion your effort as it will be a slog.

Any way I can help, and I am sure it won't be much more than I have already provided, I happy to lend a hand.

Cheers

Butch

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